(Photo Credit: http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/english/on-line-exhibits/education/pics)
Through Joe, Pip, Biddy, and Mr. Wopsle's great aunt, we get a sense of the state of education in Victorian England. What did you notice concerning education's role in that society? What is different compared to modern education's practices and importance?
"Whatsume'er the failings on his part, Remember reader he were that good in his heart." These words, which Joe wanted to put upon the tombstone of his father, tell us several things about Joe. What are some of these things?
Joe tries to get Pip -- and the reader -- to understand his relationship with Mrs. Joe. Does it make sense? Explain.
11 comments:
In Pip's society, education was not common among adults and children alike. Dickens portrays this by contrasting Joe's admiration of Pip’s poor writing, because he himself is unable to read or write. This scene also foreshadows Pip's desire for self-improvement. Pip's struggle to read and write also makes him desire educational improvement.
Joe explains to Pip that when his father died he wanted to engrave the words "Whatsume'er the failings on his part, Remember reader he were that good in his heart" on his father’s grave. I think that the reason Joe wanted these words to be written on his father’s grave is because Joe respected the fact that his father would always come back to him and his mother after they left him. Even though his father was extremely violent, Joe found reason to believe that his father was trying to do what was best for Joe and his family. Joe respects Pip’s sister for the same reasons. He believes that Pip’s sister is trying to do everything she can to help Pip behave the way that he should. However, neither Pip nor Joe have ever been educated, and when Pip writes a letter to Joe on his slate, the two realize that they both desire to learn how to read and write. Joe then explains to Pip that if Pip teaches Joe how to read and write, they have to do it without Mrs. Joe finding out.
The education problems in the society don't surprise me. That is somewhat of a staple of Victorian England, and a lot of other countries around the same time. Education just wasn't as important to people as it is now, because it wasn't needed to make money. In fact, it was exactly the opposite, education was seen as NOT doing work to make money. As well it should have, I guess, because most money was made on farming and crops, which couldn't be done if men and boys were off at school. I think we learn a lot about Joe from the little stanza he wrote for his father's tombstone. Joe is defiantly a little naive, but he is so kind and forgiving as well. His father beat him and his mother, and yet Joe still loves his father with all his heart. He doesn't hold anything against him whatsoever. His forgiving spirit even after a long, hard life is amazing to me. Also, the fact that it sounds like he really does love Mrs. Joe is odd. She doesn't show any love towards him, and basically treats him like an unwanted child, yet he can still see the good things about her. Or what he thinks is good. I don't think it makes much sense, but I;m not sure if i can explain it yet. Maybe as the book goes on, I will get a clearer image of this relationship.
Education isn't important in Victorian England, simply because at that time, who you were born into set you up for the course your life would take. Status and family connections were more important back then, rather than the individuals own talent or intelligence. It's much different compared to modern times where an education is required until a certain age and without an education you are highly unlikely to succeed. I think that we learn that Joe is a people pleaser in this chapter. He is quick to forgive people and also wants what will be best for others, striving to help make other people's lives better. Joe's relationship with Mrs. Joe makes so much more sense now after reading this chapter. Seeing how Joe was brought up with a mother who was stuck in an abusive relationship and wasn't living a happy life shows why Joe allows his wife to walk all over him. Basically he is trying to make Mrs. Joe never have to feel like his mother did, which, unfortunately for Joe, means he lets his wife take advantage of him. It's sad that Joe just goes from one end of the spectrum (having an abusive father) to the other (having an abusive wife), as though he is unable to find the happy medium where he can be happy and feel that Mrs. Joe is happy without letting his wife demean him.
I found it odd that a year had passed since the hunt in the marshes. As for education, it is definitely not a major concern by society. For their class, I assume middle class; it is not a top priority. Compared to today, the role of education is much greater. To not attend school is illegal. Joe has always been a compassionate character throughout the book. I believe his love for Pip is so great because his father wasn’t the father he should have been. The traits described were obviously not passed down to Joe. Pip seems to be like a son to Joe. The relationship between Mrs. Joe and her husband does not make much sense to me. Today this would not be a normal relationship. I do not understand why he would begin to like his wife. In a way she is like his father. She is abusive and overbearing.
Joe and Mrs. Joe have a very strange relationship. At first I was very confused as to why Joe let his wife take advantage of him and abuse him. After reading through chapter 7 though, I really got to hand it to Joe. Even though he had a hard past with having an abusive father who would beat him and having to watch his mother get abused, he was able to get past that and marry Mrs. Joe. He lets Mrs. Joe take advantage of him because he doesn't want her to feel like his mother did. It's a sweet circumstance but it also very strange, considering he does all this for her but she doesn't deserve any respect at all. She is a mean, degrading person who treats both Joe and Pip unfairly. She is also very hypocritical, making herself want to seem like she's a morally upright woman, when really she is far from that standard.
I couldn't understand Joe and Mrs. Joe's relationship until now. I was wondering why Joe would let his wift push him around and take advantage of him and abuse him and he did nothing to stop her or stick up for himself. After reading through chapter seven, Joe tells Pip that him and his mother were abused by his father when he was younder. His mother had run away several times trying to escape him but he found them and would beat them both every time. Joe does not want Mrs. Joe to feel like his mother did, so he lets her take advantage of him. It's a very sweet situation, even though it is strange and ironic, since Mrs. Joe doesnt' seem to deserve any respect at all by the way she treats both Pip and her husband.
There is an extreem difference in victorian age and present day education. There was very little need for education in Pips time period because your life was pretty much planned out. If you were born in the upper class you stayed in the upper class and the same for lower class members. If you were born into the lower class you were expected t help with the familly business such as farming or you became an apprentice like Pip was going to become. There was no need for book knowledge. everything you needed to know was learned on the job. in present day, we spend 7 hours a day going to school during our childhood and then most go to college to prepare even more for their future career. There are much more options now and we are not stuck with what we are born into. We can make our own lives and futures.
In the chapter it was mentioned that it’s a year after the marshes. I think Dickens did a good job making Pip’s character sound older and more knowledgeable/understanding. The couplet Joe wished to put on his father’s tombstone shows his well developed empathy. The man that beat not only his mother, but him, unfairly was a good man in Joe’s eyes (as Mrs. Joe is), for Joe’s father had a good heart with good intentions. At first, Joe tries to voice an admiration for Mrs. Joe. I am not sure whether that voiced admiration is sincere or whether its purpose was to attempt changing Pip’s negative opinion on Mrs. Joe. Then, Joe continues talking about why he does not leave Mrs. Joe. He tells Pip of his childhood and his parents. It is obvious that Joe greatly admires his mother, and abhors his father’s unfair actions. Due to his fear of being even partially unfair, like his father, Joe makes sure to respect and do right by Mrs. Joe, no matter what she is doing to him, in order to satisfy his conscience. On the other hand, he feels guilty, for his past which stops him from protecting himself now also stops him from protecting Pip. This chapter showed the complexity of Joe’s character, rather than the weak character portrayed in the beginning of the book.
Joe's sympathy for everyone around him, whether or not they deserve it, simply astounds me in this chapter. It was earlier seen in his attitude towards the convict when the convict told Joe that he stole food from their house and Joe held no ill will towards him, but the complete forgiveness Joe gives his abusive father and his also abusive wife is incredible. His blind and illogical sympathy towards others makes the reader feel intense sympathy towards him, and at this point in the novel I am a little ashamed to say that I wanted to cry. Joe is the perfect example of intellegence not having to correspond with one of the hardest things to do: forgive.
A few major differences between education in Victorian England and education in the U.S. now is that back in Victorian England education was not compulsory and in Victorian England usually only the upper class got a proper education. One reason for this is in the 1800’s education was not nearly as important as it is today because back then most jobs had to do with farming, which required no education, or as in trades such as iron working, were taught from master to apprentice. The words that Joe wanted to put on his father’s tombstone reveal Joe to be very empathetic and forgiving.
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