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So...Compeyson jilted Miss Havisham...Molly and Magwitch are the parents of Estella...and Miss Havisham ended up with Estella. In all of this tangled web, who do you think is the biggest victim here?
Notice the craft Dickens uses in this conversation between Herbert and Pip. How does he manage to make this conversation some about in such a natural way? What makes it such a real exchange?
13 comments:
I feel the most sympathy for Magwitch. Because of what happened, he is under the impression that Molly killed their daughter, and with that he had to worry about being sucked into Molly's trial because of it. Because of what Herbert said about Compeyson knowing what had happened and why Magwitch had gone into hiding, I have a hunch that Compeyson might have tried to frame Magwitch. So with what happened, Magwitch lost his daughter, wife, and freedom.
I'm a fan of how Dickens writes his dialogue-- it's so different from most of the fiction I read. Dickens sets up scenes, but doesn't lose them in dialogue. His characters don't give off the impression that they are completely absorbed and preoccupied by their conversations, separate from the existing environment.
In the case of this chapter, Herbert multitasks as he tells Pip Magwitch's story, interrupting every now and then to address Pip on the state of his burns and bandages.
In the complicated plot in this novel I would think Estella's story is the most tragic. She believed to be orphaned and brought up by Miss Havisham; a woman who forces Estella to be devoid of all emotions towards others. Also, Miss Havisham shuts her off from the world by placing her upon a pedestal and convincing her she's better than everyone around her. She has gone through life believing she is better than everyone as well as being difficult towards almost any many who tries to court her. She eventually settles with Drummle because of his success, knowing he can support her. However, after a decade of unhappiness in her marriage Drummle passes away, leaving Estella alone once more. Her character is not one that seems to prosper in loneliness. For the length of the novel and her bringing up she's had someone to care and look out for her. It is not until she reunites with Pip that she has a chance of true happiness.
Oh my goodness, this book is just full of twists and webs connecting everybody! I want to feel sympathy for Miss Havisham, because of the dreadful life she has lead, but I feel that she has done just as much harm to herself as others have. I agree with Lauren in feeling sympathy for Magwitch. He just seems to be one of those people who is constantly in the wrong place at the wrong time. He hasn't done much wrong in his life, yet he is known as a convict.
I enjoy Herbert's conversations with Pip very much! Mr. Dickens is very good at showing the relationship between the two through these talks of theirs. I feel like I can actually hear Herbert talking. The exchange back and forth of topics makes it very realistic, as opposed to thought-out and edited.
So many characters have been wronged in this novel that it is impossible for me to choose a "biggest victim". Miss Havisham's heart was broken, Molly and Magwitch live their lives daughter-less, and Estella has been brought up a heartless monster without having a say in the matter. Everybody's been the biggest victim and the biggest perpetrator. When I read the conversation between Herbert and Pip I felt like I was completing a best friend trio ( like I was one of them). It was so familiar, casual, and welcoming. The way the conversation was set up between the depth of the situation being talked about to the casualness of taking care of Pip's arm made it a real-life exchange between good friends. I wish more authors would write dialogue like Dickens because it's easier to relate too.
I don’t really think there is a biggest victim, they all have many issues because of their past. Miss Havisham, although hurt by Compeyson, shouldn’t of raised a naive “orphaned” child to be a heartbreaker. After getting out of the trial, Molly knew that her daughter was alive through Jagger’s, but I felt if she really wanted to see her daughter there might have been a chance to meet her. Magwitch is the character I feel sorry for, after thinking his daughter is dead because of Molly. But then again, he also committed many crimes afterwards, but that could have been because he felt lonely and he had nothing to live for. Although as Estella got older she could of realized what Miss Havisham was doing and changed the way she acted, I still feel like Estella had the most unfair fate. Losing her parents as a young child must have been hard, and in looking for guidance, she listened to Miss Havisham, who taught her to be a cruel woman without giving her any other choice.
I agree with Sam that Estella seems to be the biggest victim, but I feel sympathy for all of the characters. I feel like Estella is the victim because her actions are a product of the way she was raised and she had no choice in the matter. Miss Havisham's heart was broken by Compeyson and because of this broken heart, she raised Estella to be cold hearted and uncapable of loving others. Estella did absolutely nothing wrong and by the time she realized that she was emotionless, it was really to late to change because of the way Miss Havisham raised her. Not only did Estella grow up without parents, but she was raised to think that no one can ever truly love her.I also feel sorry for Magwitch. All along he thought that his daughter was dead, when in fact she was alive and living with Miss Havisham. He loses everything he has, his family and his freedom, all at once.
So Magwitch is Estella's father? ok, sure. That's fair enough. All the characters are related somehow, they all have pasts or secrets with one another. Despite all the tragedy and terrible things that have happened the only people i feel sorry for are Joe and Clara. Everyone else is pointless. Maybe Biddy too. Yes, her too, she was alright. I have to admit, the dialogue actually makes sense in this portion, its realistic and believable but really really boring. I don't think Herbert had to stop and ask if he was hurting Pip every three seconds. Now that that huge secret is out, I'm right on the edge of my seat bursting with excitement wondering what will happen next.
Each character in this web has suffered. Each of them have a past that is dark and lonely. To pick one to sympathize the most with is almost impossible because each have endured so much and for that reason they are suffering, which is seen through each of their bitter attitudes.
The way Dickens writes the conversation between Herbert and Pip is so realistic. It displays the friendship between them. He describes the area they are in allowing you to jump into the book and sit among them in the conversation.
Every character seems to be connected in some way throughout this book. I feel the most sympathy for Magwitch because he had to live a life of running away from everybody. He got wraped up with Molly and had a daughter, and lived in guilt because he thought that Molly killed her. Then he got involved with Compeyson's schemes and got blamed more for what he did. I agree with Hannah, Magwitch is just simply in the wrong place at the right time. I honestly do not feel any sympathy for Estella because she hurt Pip in so many ways and made fun of him because he was poor. She didn't realize her exact past and where she came from, if Miss Havisham didn't take her in she would have lead a miserable life like Pip also. I understand the main reason why Estella acted the way she did was because she was raised by Miss Havisham, so in a way I do feel some sympathy for her.
In my opinion, Estella is the biggest victim in the novel. She has been lied to for basically her entire life, and, in reality, has no idea who she really is. She has no other memories than those that Miss Havisham has created for her, and she isn’t even sure of who her biological parents are. Throughout her whole life, Estella has been raised and brainwashed to aid Miss Havisham in her attempt to gain revenge on men. She’s never had a chance to be anything other than Miss Havisham’s little pet, and she doesn’t know any different. Even though several men have tried countless times to win over Estella’s heart, she never seems to be able to share their affection; she’s barely ever expressed any of her emotions. Although all of the other characters have also lived traumatic lives, I think Estella’s conditions are the worst.
Dickens is able to make the conversation between Pip and Herbert so natural by putting the two characters into such a simple setting. As Herbert bandages Pip’s arm, the two carry on their conversation. The fact that Pip and Herbert are so close also makes the conversation seem more realistic. The friendship that Dickens has created between the two characters allows them to be able to carry out a normal conversation, not a sitting-down-at-dinner-trying-to-make-awkward-conversation conversation.
This book really does make me feel as though every pity party i have ever seen is really insignificant. I mean Miss Havisham has to deal with a wrecked heart (something i am sure all of us, as highschoolers, have felt to some degree) and a child to raise, Molly and Magwitch have had to live daughterless, and Estella has been thrusted into a horrible upbringing where she acts cold to all of those who try to get close to her. Although all these are horrible things, i feel as though Magwitch has it the worst. He never really has done anything wrong and he has had to deal with the loss of a child (which some people say is the worst pain a person can endure), and he is known as a convict. As perfectly put by Lauren, Magwitch has lost his daughter, wife, and freedom.
I believe that every character was a victim in one way or another, they were all vicious to each other. Miss Havisham got pushed around because of her money and when she simply wanted something to take care of she gets pulled into corrupt scenarios and people. However, she still permanatly harmed Estella. Estella just felt ok leading on and playing with Pip truely knowing she was harming him. Magwitch seems to have gotten himself into the trouble but really has a kind heart and Molly is truely a mysterious character who seems to be victimized bu jaggers.
The conversation between Pip and Herbert is informal and sincere. They dont try to withhold information or trick each other like other conversation occur in the book.
I think Estella has lost the most. She lost her parents, and by losing them ended up with Miss Havisham. There she was raised to hate, not love. Her entire life was constructed for revenge. Magwitch is also a victim, but less than Estella. He may have lost his kid and his love, but he admits that Molly was more focused on revenge than him, and he still had the ability to control his life. Molly got her revenge and payed the price for it. She didn't want her child, she wanted to destroy it, and obviously didnt care for Magwitch anymore. Miss Havisham is a victim of her own actions. SHe had her heart brocken, but instead of moving on and trying to get over it she shut her self off from the world, quite literally. She closed herself off from even sunlight and stopped the clocks st the time her world stopped. She could have moved on, but instead she raised a girl for revenge, and cried when it backfired, and she was again unloved and rejected by someone she loved.
(I love that picture of the horse's mane.)
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