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Another masterful writing job by Dickens here, as he has Pip drifting in and out of consciousness. What exactly does Dickens do to make this so realistic?
Pip is in deep financial straits. How will he get out of debt without a job? Do you think this will force him to work for Herbert?
Awesome and humorous description her of Joe writing a letter...and note the positive descriptions of their walks and rides.
Joe feels guilty about not being able to stop Mrs. Joe and the tickler, and he feels even more guilty because his attempts to stop her caused Pip to get even worse beatings. Is this guilt justified?
So now we know what "secondly" meant. If you were Biddy, what would you say?
9 comments:
I think Dickens use of imagery that was simple to visualize and understand really helps to set off how Pip is feeling. How Pip "was a brick in the house wall" and how faces "dilated in size" really just all around captured what Pip was experiencing. For a while I thought Pip was screwed with his debt, and just figured he would have no other option than to go and work for Herbert. The fact that Joe paid for Pip's debts he was arrested for was just another reason to love Joe. Joe's guilt is so not justified, as he couldn't control what another person does, especially not someone like Mrs. Joe. With everything that Joe has done for Pip, it's almost funny to think that of the two of them that Joe should feel guilty about anything. If I was Biddy, I really don't know what I would say. It would be a tricky thing to just be ok with him, but at the same time Pip has grown a lot and become a really great person because of it.
I love Joe's pride when he writes his letter. The big production of the actual writing of the letter is also a bit humorous, but in a way that makes his prideful letter writing a heart-warming endeavor. I think that if Joe didn't pay off Pip's debts then he would of had to work for Herbert in order to pay off the debts, I think it would do Pip some good to actaully earn his own money.
Joe's guilt isn't really justified because he did try to stop Mrs. Joe and defend Pip, but all that accomplished was worse beatings. Pip knew that Joe was somewhat of a defender against his beatings and tried to stop them, so in his eyes Joe really didn;t deserve to have all of his guilt.
I don't think Joe's guilt for Pip's beatings is justified. Joe did what he could to prevent Pip from all the agony of Mrs. Joe and the Tickler. Although it resulted in more extreme punishment for Pip, this escalation was not Joe's choice -- it was the choice of the punishers. Joe was a good man for his attempts to rescue Pip, and it is right that he was acknowledged as such.
It made me smile that Joe learned to write. He was full of pride and happiness. Although I think it should be a time of guilt for Pip, because he should've been there to help and support Joe as he learned to read and write, instead of leaving and never checking up on him because "Pip was too good for that now."
I feel like if I was in Pip's position, I'd be plain embarrassed after everything I had done and Joe paying my debt too. It seems like a hundred and something dollars at the time in which the story takes place is quite a lot, and Joe isn't what you call rich.
I don't think there is any shred of reason why Joe should feel guilty; although, I do understand the sadness in him. Seeing pain and suffering in front of him, and wanting to stop it, but being absolutely powerless, makes him wish he was bigger, better, and more powerful to where he can protect whom he cares about.
After reading this chapter and seeing what Joe did for Pip even after the way Pip treated him, Joe stood out to me as one of the few good characters in the book. He is always so nice to Pip no matter how Pip treats him, and I think Pip was beginning to realize what a huge mistake it was to leave a friend like Joe after this chapter. I was really happy when I realized Joe could write, it was almost as if he was proving Pip wrong in that he could be more educated. Pip seemed like a spoiled brat in the end of the chapter after Joe left. The way I interpreted it was that Pip still loved Estella but knew he couldn’t have her, so he was going to instead marry Biddy. I’m glad that he never got the chance to.
I love Dickens Writing and here again he proves his talent as he sets the scene through descriptive words and jumbled writing. I agree with Ashley how he used the metaphor of Pip being a brick in a brick wall. He used descriptions like that to help the reader imagine themselves in his position and to be able to relate. He also wrote as if each of Pips experiences with people were of different imaginary or strange people, when you find out it was Joe this whole time, the reader is as surprised to find this out as Pip himself is. The only reasonable way for Pip to become free of his debts would be to go off and work for Herbert, and knowing Herbert he would open his arms to him and help his old pal for as long as he needed. The way Dickens describes Joe while he is writing the letter is absolutely hilarious. He get this image of this high class man trying to impress a fellow high class man, but in the end he his only writing a simple letter. Yes, i believe this act for Joe is one of great success, i do not know if Dickens was trying to make fun of Pip subtly in this description? Joes guilt is really justified, but the way that he feels bad is a human characteristic that many encounter. Joe did everything humanly possible to help Pip get treated with less cruelty the himself, however he stills feels guilty. Anyone in Joe's situation would feel guilty. People have a tendency to feel bad when they see another love one getting hurt even though they couldn't have stopped it.
Of course Joe feels bad for not being able to stop Mrs. Joe, he is always looking out for Pip's best interest. I don't think Joe should feel guilty though, he was not the one to hurt Pip. I think he feels bad being the head of the house though, like he wasn't fulfilling his duties. Obviously he felt as if he were beneath Mrs. Joe, and I think he probably has regret and hurt feelings towards that as well.
As of if I were Biddy, I would feel really hurt that Pip would consider me his "second" choice. Although I doubt Biddy would judge Pip much, she always seemed to understand him. I'm glad that she ends up with Joe though, I think they deserve each other, and they both deserve happiness.
The beginning of the chapter was hard to follow, which explains Pip drifting from unconscious to conscious. Dickens described Pip's point of view as being unsure and awkward. When Pip saw the police come into his home to try and arrest him for debt, he wasn't sure who they were and how they kept repeating themselves. It was very disorderly and confusing to him. This style of writing by Dickens captured Pip's mind perfectly. I'm sure if Biddy would have known Pip's "secondly," it probably would not have gone too well. Biddy would want someone who would stay by her side forever, and Pip showed that he wasn't really able to do that.
Poor Joe, I never thought he might feel guilty! I always thought Pip should be the guilty one. I do think Joe's guilt is valid, though. I think he should have stood up to his wife more and stopped the abuse altogether. It fits that they are both guilty of harming the other. Pip abandoned Joe literally, and Joe figuratively abandoned Pip in those harsh situations. I do think Joe was a good friend to Pip, but he also needed to play out his role as a guardian. The ironic part is, both of them don't seem to find the other at fault, only himself. Since they don't hold contempt for each other, their reunion allows them to realize that they still love each other.
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