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Why are the scouts killed, but not Weary or Billy?
p. 56: Is there any significance to this instance of time travel? Any significance to falling asleep (increasingly) at work?
What is "Ausable Chasm"?
What does the Lion's Club do? Who can join?
Interesting that Billy was not affected by the talk of bombings in Vietnam...why do you think he is so ambivalent?
What is the origin of the prayer on Billy's office wall? What group is associated with this prayer? What does this suggest about Billy?
Why do you think Billy just randomly weeps now?
Is there any significance in Billy's business investments?
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." Love those lines.
Any significance to Billy's train moving and his being abducted by aliens?
35 comments:
If it considered from a logical standpoint, the two scouts were more likely to survive than Billy and Weary were. The scouts ditched Billy and Weary most likely because they were slowing them down, and they saw a better chance for survival on their own. This, of course, begs the question, why did Vonnegut kill two characters that were better adapted to survive in a war situation? Why did Billy Pilgrim and Weary, both two wholly unsuitable or efficient soldiers, survive? This situation goes directly against the Darwin theory "survival of the fittest", so why did Vonnegut choose to disregard this social theory? I assume it was because the author wanted to draw the readers attention to this specific event. The way I see it, Vonnegut is almost telling the reader what he told them with the quote "So it goes". Vonnegut is essentially saying, with the deaths of the two scouts, that life and death is luck of the draw. It doesn't matter how prepared one is, if they are meant to be dead, they are dead, and if they are meant to live, they live. However, if this is true, then it wouldn't truly be luck of the draw, because everyone's fate would already be determined. It would again tie to the non-existence of free will, because no matter what "choices" were made, the end result was already determined. But, why would Vonnegut choose to promote this theme throughout his novel? We, the reader, already know that Billy will survive this war, even though he is completely unsuited and unlikely to do so. Is Vonnegut trying to explain that Billy survives because he is lucky, not because he was the most fit to do so? If so, Vonnegut is disregarding the natural laws of society and implementing a fictitious society that is based purely upon pre-determined fate.
Billy was abducted by aliens. I believe this is Vonnegut trying to show what war can do to a human being. Although Billy is obviously crazy, there is an odd similarity to the aliens and the people who take prisoners of war. Is living inside an air-tight room with alien creaturs staring at you any different than being locked up in a room with foreigners staring at you?
Vonnegut has written of of the most interesting war novels. Ever.
Ausable Chasm is a place of lots of natural beauty stops. The pictures taken there are worth more than a thousand words. While there most people don't think of it's history because there is so much to see. Samuel De Champlain explored the Champlain valley about 400 years ago. I don't remember a lot about the history behind it, because I went there when I was only six. However, I do remember that these sites were one of the best things to look at next to the Cherry Blossom Festival these rank in the top ten must see places. There as good as taken a walk through the whole Grand Canyon. If you haven’t been there you should try to do so. Plus it’s not that far from where we are. It’s in New York, so you don’t have to travel far.
I think it’s interesting that the narrator says the fifteen-year-old boy is as beautiful as Eve.
The scouts are killed because they were waiting to ambush German soldiers. They were found and shot from behind. It doesn’t say that they knew they were going to be shot, so I’ll assume they did. I think they were shot because they threatened the soldiers. Weary and Billy were found by a group of men pretending to be soldiers. They were amused and curious about why Weary was trying to kill Billy. I think they just wanted to take the things they needed; like shoes, warm clothing, weapons, etc.
I believe that the story of being abducted by aliens is Billy's coping mechanism. He suffered many traumatic events and witnessed so many deaths that he became numb to it. So it goes. The tralfamadorians (whether they are real or fictitious) offer a sort of peace or calmness for Billy. War is such a fast and explosive time, but the aliens are all about each moment. The alien's, in Billy's mind, could be a way to slow down after the excitement of war.
The hobo that stands next to Billy while on the train is pretty cool. He's crammed in the car with tons of other men, not to mention bad conditions, and he doesn't let it get to him. "You think this is bad," he would say, "This ain't bad," (pg. 79). Throughout the train ride, the hobo continues to make comments like this. Maybe he thinks that if he stays positive he'll make it through. Maybe he's just stating facts. Either way, I respect him for not complaining the whole way like he could be.
I agree with Rosa about the hobo. He has been through much worse so anything else doesnt seem so bad to him. He cant change the situation he is in, so hes not going to be upset about it. I think the hobo supports the idea of ignoring the awful times, and concentrating on the good times.
I think the colors of blue and ivory symbolize innocence. Not only that, but they give a feeling of coldness. Billy’s own feet are described as being blue and ivory when waiting to be abducted by the Tralfamadorians. Blue and ivory is also used with death. Dead prisoners are described as having blue and ivory feet. Both Billy and the prisoners were innocent. Billy was an innocent man being capture for no reason, and the prisoners were innocent people killed in war.
Billy's abduction by the aliens goes hand in hand with his capture during the war. The way I viewed it was as a prisoner of war he was no longer viewed as a living thing but as an object of which to viewed without caring for its health.
I think its funny that the two scouts ditched Weary and Billy because they thought they had more of a chance of surviving. The two scouts end up dead and the two most unsuitable guys for war you ever seen end up surviving. I think Erin was right about the author going agiant the theory of social darwinism to draw in some attention of the reader.
I also notice how Billy seems to travel through time when he's in an uncomfortable situation or a horrible one.
I think the hobo is dumb. I think by the way he is always saying that "this ain't bad," he really is complaining, trying to make others feel like they should be feeling fine in these conditions. But everyone knows that the conditions are bad, no one really wants to be alive and they are all suffering. The hobo dies anyway, even though he has a "positive" attitude.
The prayer on Billy's office wall apparently inspired his patients to "keep going" in life. Although, I think that it helps Billy too. Even though he claims he is unenthusiastic about life. Why would he have the prayer? But, it ties to the theory of the Tralfadorians in the previous chapter. They say that the past, present, and future will always exist but according to Billy, those are the three things Billy cannot change.
After the teenager took Weary's shoes, his feet started becoming blistered and bloody. He had to walk for miles in unsuitable shoes. But Billy had bad shoes as well. He bobbed up and down for days, nothing is mentioned about the blisters on his feet. Was he too numb to notice them? Weary ended up dying from his foot disease. There were many men in his train that had similar conditions, and no one else was effected by the disease. Could this be more evidence that "So it goes" is just a "luck of the draw" as Erin stated?
I think that time travel is Billy's way of coping with what is happening in his life. His mind goes off into what he imagines the future will be or memories of the past to keep Billy from noticing all the horrible things around him. I think Billy is ambivalent about bombings and death because of what he saw during the war. He accepted what he couldn't change and moved on. I think the poem reminds him of the fact that he couldn't change what happened or will happen.
I like the lines “When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share.” I think it says a lot about the human race, about us. It kind of gives off a feeling of how vulnerable and young we are in this world. When a mass amount humans are put in a situation like that and stripped of everything they have, they become so innocent and will do anything to hang on and survive. They seem to become children again in a way.
The story of Billy being abducted by aliens is his way of coping with his life’s events. He has seen so many horrible things and deaths that he has become immune certain events. The aliens are a way to slow him down after war battles. The tralfamadorians provide security and calmness for him.
I agree with Allison about Blue and Ivory being very symbolic, because as I was reading I noticed them almost immediately. When he was about to be abducted by the Tralfamadorians, I first realized the use of the colors because Billy's feet were described as being blue and ivory. "Out he went, his blue and ivory feet crushing the wet salad of the lawn". Also, the feet of the dead prisoners were oddly described as having blue and ivory coloring. I believe that the colors symbolize how little there is between life and death and also between one experience to the next. The color blue often used to display the emotion of sadness, death, and depression, but could also mean rebirth and new beginnings in general. When the color ivory often represents innocence, purity, and freedom. All of this makes sense with what can come from the novel.
I think the weeping and the alien theory go hand-in-hand. These things seem to come up when Billy is left hopeless. He doesn't believe that anything is worth it, I feel. He kind of just goes with the flow and takes life meaninglessly. Weeping and having an imaginary escape (Tralfamadorians) takes him away from reality and make him feel hopeful. When he weeps, it's a realization that he's pretending like things don't phase him but it all builds up: the things he cannot change.
the scouts are killed because they had actual skill. weary and billy were both terrible soldiers, and so they weren't considered a threat, and just captured.
the ausable chasm is a 2-mile gorge in new york that the ausable river runs through. it is sometimes referred to as the "grand canyon of the east".
billy is so ambivalent because being ambivalent and not thinking about it is easier than protesting and stirring up all of the terrible old memories.
i think that billy randomly weeps because he is so mixed up in time that his reactions to events are mixed up as well.
the line "billy turned on the magic fingers, and he was jiggled as he wept" is one of the funniest ways to portray weeping
i thought the narrator using "human beings" to describe the prisoners of war in the train cars, instead of people or soldiers or any other word, they were simply another organism, another being.
Billy goes through random stages of weeping because of all his mixed feelings. He believes he has been put through so many different obstacles that he cannot do anything about. His time travels leave him looking into his past without being able to change the outcome. He then creates his second world of the Tralfamadorians where he does not weep, and he, of course, follows what they believe. This becomes his escape.
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." I found these lines to be pretty strange and comical. Billy looks upon the human race as if he isn't a part of it, like he is a totally different species. When I read these lines I instantly imagined a group of animals boxed into a car. By setting himself apart from them, he shows his individuality and how "alienated" he is from other humans. I'm sure this goes hand-in-hand with his idea of the Tralfamdorian's.
I agree with Rosa and Jennifer about the Hobo. I think that he's trying to stay positive and that he has probably survived other terrible conditions and situations.
Just a thought, (this is probably way off) could the hobo's positive attitude also be connected with the Tralfamadorians? Like that the reason he stays positive and keeps saying "this ain't bad" is because he feels like he's already in his situation and whatever may happen to him will happen no matter what he does, as if his future is already decided for him. Which is what the Tralfamadorians also believe.
Billy’s abduction by aliens is definitely in the book to show what war can do to a human. It shows that war can make a man go crazy. I also agree with Erin F., that the abduction story is a way for Billy to cope. The war was a painful time in Billy’s life. He saw many more deaths than any of us will ever see (hopefully we will never see any). The way the Tralfamadorian’s think is calming to Billy by taking each moment how it is and slowing things down. This way of thinking is probably comforting to Billy because he is used to the hustle bustle of the war.
It is interesting to me that Billy’s sees the image of Adam and Eve in the commander’s boots. A biblical reference in war to me means that the commander is putting his life in the hands of his faith, being wounded, patched up, and sent back to war as many times as he has. This shows me the commander believes no one is above the war, and the war is bigger then any one person that faith has to be involved to get through it alive.
The fact that Billy randomly weeps really struck me. It seems that he's under depression, he doesn't care about life anymore or what happens to him, he just goes through the motions. All of this is a result of the devistating effects of the war on Billy. Also, along with the whole alien theory, it shows Billy's lack of enthusiasm in life and hopelessness. When he's taken away by the Tralfamadorian's he has a purpose and it gives him hope. I really like Billy as a character and I hate the fact that he struggles so much in life.
The hobo is another aspect in this chapter that I really enjoyed, and I'm glad that Vonnegut added it in the novel. He kept repeating the phrase 'this ain't bad'. His whole life had been about feeling hopeless and lonely - and the prisioners were just then feeling it for the first time. The hobo adds some spice to the train ride.
The fact that Billy randomly weeps really struck me. It seems that he's under depression, he doesn't care about life anymore or what happens to him, he just goes through the motions. All of this is a result of the devistating effects of the war on Billy. Also, along with the whole alien theory, it shows Billy's lack of enthusiasm in life and hopelessness. When he's taken away by the Tralfamadorian's he has a purpose and it gives him hope. I really like Billy as a character and I hate the fact that he struggles so much in life.
The hobo is another aspect in this chapter that I really enjoyed, and I'm glad that Vonnegut added it in the novel. He kept repeating the phrase 'this ain't bad'. His whole life had been about feeling hopeless and lonely - and the prisioners were just then feeling it for the first time. The hobo adds some spice to the train ride.
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." These lines stuck out to me as well. At reading them, I was kind of surprised that the men weren't fighting over the food. Is this reality? If it were, I would agree that it is truly beautiful. It seems idealistic, the idea that starving, exhausted, beat up, and traumatized men would muster patience and trust over a small amount of food.
This chapter, to me, was sort of disturbing in a way. The dying colonel addressing his invisible troops was extremely sad. I was wondering if it had any importance to the story or not. Maybe Vonnegut put this part in to hit home the sadness of war and what it can do to people. I thought it was interesting that the colonel chose Billy to talk to and he was only staring into Billy’s eyes and wasn’t looking at anyone else. The troops being separated by rank and shoved into box cars of a train really reminded me of the people being put on trains to go to death camps. Vonnegut’s description of the inside of the box cars was disgusting. I can’t even imagine being in a small space with a bunch of other people and no way of getting out. I felt so bad for the men that had to go through this, especially being on a stationary train and not having any idea of where you were going to next.
I fell like one of the biggest themes of the book is stated in chapter three by the prayer on Billy's wall in his office. The prayer says "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to always tell the difference." When Billy moves through time, he can't change the things that have already happened, but he can change what has yet to happen, though changing what has yet to happen takes a great amount of courage.
I agree with Erin. To an extent, the scouts death seems like chance, as they were more adapted to survive the war, and were killed nevertheless. However, from a logical standpoint, as the scouts were more adept at survival they may have posed more of a threat if left alive. Billy and Weary were found fighting in the snow. They are both young, and they did not appear dangerous. They were easily captured and offered no resistance whatsoever. I agree that "survival of the fittest" does not apply to war. In fact, the scouts may have been killed because they WERE a threat to their would-be captors.
I think Alexis was right when she was comparing the aliens to the people who take prisoners of war. There really isn't much of a difference. Being kidnapped by aliens could deffinately ressemble being put in box-cars and being kept there and not allowed off. Either way you see it as your a prisoner, and they took you from where you were. Neither circumstances are good.
The hobo that is in the boxcar has a different view on their situation. He keeps saying that being stuck in a boxcar with little food “ain’t bad”. He seems indifferent to anything about his life. I think this has something to do with the Tralfamadorian philosophy. The Tralfamadorians see life as already being predicted and no matter what, you can’t change it. I think the hobo agrees with that view and is not concerned about what might happen to him because he can’t change anything about it. I think Vonnegut added the hobo into the novel to emphasize that point.
I agree with Carol on the idea that time travel is Billy's way of coping with what is happening in his life. His mind wanders off into what he imagines the future will be like and making him unfocused on all of the real things going on around him. I think Billy is oblivious about bombings and death because of what he saw during the war. I think the poem reminds him of the fact that he couldn't change what happened or will happen.
“Billy had a framed prayer on his office wall… It went like this: ‘God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom always to tell the difference.’ Among the things Billy Pilgrim could not change were the past, the present, and the future.” (Vonnegut 60)
I find the fact that Billy has this prayer displayed in his office to be very ironic. While he tries to convince himself that the future can be changed, he cannot change what he truly believes. His mind is set to thinking a specific way, and he cannot change who he is. As a result, I feel that most of the events in the novel are simply an illusion that Billy has created in order to cope with his unhappiness. Rather than accept the fact that he cannot change the future because he does not have the strength, he imagines the Tralfamadorians and their belief in a predefined universe. This gives him a reason to why he feels he is unsuccessful. Here merely has to believe that is the way it has to be and this makes it easier to accept this rather than face the fact that he does not have the strength to change his future.
The time travel seems to be increasingly more in this chapter compared to the previous. His weepings could be that at another point in time he was crying or his eyes were doing something, possibly an effect of time travel? It also could be because of his questionable mental state and grasp on reality. The Serenity prayer on Billy’s wall is mostly viewed with optimism. However, this contradicts with Billy’s statement that he could never change his past, present, or future. These come into play when we learn how rich and successful he has become in life. At one point he may have been optimistic, however, as he grew older and accepted that events happen as they should his view of this changed. Billy’s life appears as a reel that has already been set in motion and Billy just lets it keep rolling without attempting to change it.
Often while reading this I contribute many of Billy’s flaws, such as his mental state, to the war. It is very common for many soldiers to have a hard time post-war mentally because of what they have witnessed and endured. This fact makes it hard for me to accept Billy’ character in general . Interestingly, Billy remained quiet while the topic of bombing Vietnam arose. Would this just be another contributing factor to his mental capacity? Possibly. This chapter left me with many things to think about.
The prayer on Billy’s office wall is called the Serenity Prayer. It was written by Reinhold Niebuhr and is associated with Alcoholics Anonymous, a group of people who share their experiences with each other in hope of solving their common problem and helping others recover from alcoholism. This prayer helps Billy’s patients out with their problems by giving them hope and encouragement, but it also seems to help Billy, too.
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