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Again, Vonnegut starts with, "Billy Pilgrim says..." Does this mean Billy is an unreliable narrator to our narrator?
Vonnegut keeps describing Edgar Derby as the "high school teacher who would eventually be shot." Why does he keep reminding us of that fact?
How could the lumps in the jacket work miracles for him if he didn't question their nature?
"Golgotha sounds" -- anybody have a comment on the source of this allusion? Great phrase...
Isn't it odd to have dartboards and pool tables in a war? Are they included simply as touches of realism or for some other reason?
What are your thoughts on Lazzaro's canine revenge? What about his planned revenge on the Blue Fairy Godmother? What do these things reveal about his character? Should Billy be nervous, or is Lazzaro just a big talker?
Billy dies on 2/13/76, the day before Valentine's Day...is there any other historical significance to that date?
The state of the United States has changed. There are "20 petty nations" instead of one that is united. Chicago has been hit by a hydrogen bomb that was dropped by "angry Chinamen." These things have not actually taken place in history. What is the idea behind these facts? Why does Vonnegut choose this fate for the United States?
What is geodesic? Why is that important?
The flag described is a Hereford bull in a field of green. Anybody read
Animal Farm? Seems to be a similarity between the flags. What is the significance of that?
Death is said to be nothing but violet light and a hum...no one else is there...not even Billy Pilgrim. Kind of depressing and empty.
What does the line drawn in the dirt by the Englishman mean?
What do you make of the fact that the Cinderella boots fit Billy perfectly? Is there any of the Cinderella story in Billy's story?
On page 146 in my book, the Englishman states that nothing in Dresden is worth bombing. If all of the reasons he gives are true, then why was Dresden obliterated by bombs?
Our narrator shows up in Dresden...behind Billy in the boxcar. What significance might there be in his comparing Dresden to Oz?
Since Billy knows that Dresden will be destroyed in the bombing, he takes in the beauty of the city with new eyes. Why is it that people generally don't take in beauty like this until it's too late?
What was the purpose of hiding a denture in the lining of the muff?
53 comments:
Vonnegut keeps bringing up the fact that Derby will get shot because he wants that to be the climax of the novel. Maybe?
In the beginning of chapter 2, Vonnegut starts it off the word “listen.” When I read that, I imagined little kids spilling secrets to each other and that’s what Vonnegut told us. And when Vonnegut did that again with chapter 6, I imagined old ladies gossiping about the town drunk or something. I also questioned why he told us to listen again because at this point in the book I was already into it – it was the first couple chapters that I needed encouragement to continue reading.
I thought that when Vonnegut starts with “Billy Pilgrim says” again, it just emphasized that Billy may not be such a reliable narrator. It also made me think that the narrator wanted us to know that maybe even he doesn’t believe the story Billy is telling. I really question Billy Pilgrim’s sanity like his daughter does.
When Vonnegut keeps describing Edgar Derby as the “high school teacher who would eventually be shot” it makes me pity Derby’s fate even more. I think he keeps reminding us of that fact as well as himself so that we won’t get too attached to that character because it would just hurt that much more when he gets shot.
Lazzaro’s canine revenge is just awful! This man has a really big anger problem if that’s how he treats a poor little dog. I can understand if he wants a little revenge but to trick it like that with food is just so cruel for any living thing. We are the “smarter” human beings and should take the higher road. As for Billy, I don’t think he has to worry, not that he does anyway, because he already knows how and when he is going to die. With Lazzaro’s threats, which aren’t just talk, I think the worst part would be the waiting and not knowing when it will happen.
I think Vonnegut chose a dark sad fate for the United States because of the dark road they seemed to be going down back then. In a way, I also think it was a criticism to better the country Vonnegut loves. He loves the U.S. and wants it to become better like any good parent wants for their child.
And I’m not sure why people take the beauty around them for granted but it is definitely sad and very true.
Wouldn't he bring up Derby bring shot because he wants us to remember the fact about death. The point where even though Derby is a school teacher and will be shot he doesn't exist in the future, but there are plenty of memorize of him in the past that are happy thoughts and that is where he still exists and always will. I think he wants us to remember that character rather than forget him because why else would you talk about someone so much. It's like Derby has a big role to play that's just not reveled to us at this time. I just don’t think that someone would be mentioned over and over again just so you could forget about them.
I think Billy really seemed to fear the threats put about by Lazzaro because he knows when he is going to die. Maybe the fact that Billy knows when he is going to die is due to the fact that Lazzaro keeps him promise that he will in fact kill him for the revenge of his friend in the boxcar. It could also be that Billy is just a spineless man who could never deal with any conflict ever given to him, which is also why he married his wife even though there was no love for her, but only the kind received. Billy didn't want to hurt anyone.
Of course Billy Pilgrim is an unreliable narrator. All narrators are unreliable to some degree. They tell the story from their point of view, which is most likely different from someone else's. Billy Pilgrim sees things happen one way. Edgar Derby probably saw things happen differently. Neither one is necessarily wrong, but that doesn't make them right.
This took forever to research, but I finally stumbled across the significance of Billy's death on the day of February 13. The bombing of Dresden began this same day in 1945. It is strange that the climax of Billy's life happened on the same day as his death. There are many reasons that Vonnegut could have had for writing this in his story. Perhaps he wanted to add a sort of symmetry to Billy's life. Maybe he wanted his readers to see that other dates besides D-day or Pearl Harbor Day are significant in the history of war as well. Or possibly, Vonnegut was simply symbolizing Billy's mental and emotional death which truly happened all those years ago in Dresden. I'm sure there are many other interpretations. Any thoughts?
Lazzaro is very frustrated and insecure with himself. Its obvious why he was friends with Weary because they seem to have so much in common. I do think that if he doesn't die he will get revenge on the Blue Fairy God Mother because Billy even reveals that he has seen in the future that's the way he does die. Lazzaro promised he would get Billy back and he ended up doing so. He has so much built-up anger it seems like.
I think that in its own way, when Billy puts the Cinderella boots on and they fit perfectly, it gives him a new sense of hope.
People don't take in the beauty until it's too late because no one appreciates things until they are gone. In a way I feel that Billy's time "sticking" and "unsticking" is a gift and he can see how things are going to happen, but at the same time I think it's teaching him a lesson he does need to appreciate life as it is and accept things as they are. He needs to find beauty in things without knowing they will be gone or something will happen to them.
I think that Vonnegut continually reminds us of Derby's fate because, at least through Billy's mind, the future is already set and cannot be changed. It also serves to reinforce Billy's idea of Tralfamadore because they are the ones who taught him that even when a person is dead, he is also alive in many other place. I also agree that Vonnegut doesn't want us to get attached to Derby as a character, because there are many likable traits about him.
People are too "busy" to see the beauty in what's around them. I feel that people are trying to find beauty where they think it should be, not necessarily enjoying what's around them- say a sunset or a glass of lemonade with grandma. Once something's gone or going to be gone (like Dresden), a person looks at it for the true beauty it possesses. Usually then, people just turn to looking for something beautiful somewhere else, instead of capturing the beautiful moments around them. I see this theme throughout the novel. Billy is lucky in a way because he knows he cannot enjoy a moment for any given length of time so he just takes it in. It's him letting the moment be, not trying to control it. People try to control too much. There would be more beauty if people would just let go.
I love the "Golgotha sounds" allusion, Vonnegut really outdoes himself with this somber reference. Golgotha is the biblical term for the location where Jesus was supposedly crucified. According to Christian lore, the term is derived from an Aramaic word, 'gulgulta'. This word is literally translated as being "place of the skull" which, is later translated into Latin, becoming calvaria, and later becoming the word 'Calvary'. It's incredible to look at how an outdated term such as Golgotha has roots in the modern day English language.
I don't believe that Vonnegut described death as a violet light and hum intending it to be depressing. Rather, I think Vonnegut is describing death as a different stage of life, not death, and it seems that all people are equal. The way Vonnegut describes it, there are no people present in death. There is only a violet light and a hum. If we assume the hum to be the hum of energy, (i.e., high voltage power lines) then the reader could infer that this violet light is the life (death) energy of all the people that are no longer present in their human form. Much of this novel dances and plays with the concept of the fourth dimension, why should we assume that Vonnegut's concept of death is any different? I think the description of death, namely the fact that Billy Pilgrim is not there when he has died, implies that those who die have become one with everything. I don't think death is a conscious thing, and I think Vonnegut has intended the reader to come to a similar conclusion based on the rest of the experiences regarding the fourth dimension.
The line drawn by the Englishman simply showed the boundaries between the English side and the American side of the compound. The narrator states "it was a familiar symbol from childhood" where children will mark their own boundaries for themselves to play in. The same goes for the soldiers. The English section clearly didn't want anything to do with the American section because they thought they acted like animals. It shows that even though the English and the Americans were both allied, they still had their differences.
The phrase "Golgotha sounds" is a biblical allusion to the location of Jesus' crucifixion. In addition, the word "Golgotha" means "place of the skull." The phrase appears in the novel to describe the noises that Billy hears outside of the small prison hospital in Dresden. The sounds were of "strong men digging holes for upright timbers in hard, hard ground." Putting all of this together, it can be concluded that the noises of the men were passionate grunts and groans of pain and torture.
I find it very ironic how on page 146 an Englishman states that Billy and the soldiers do not need to worry about Dresden being bombed. As we know throughout the novel, the city is bombed and many are killed. I think Dresden was destroyed by bombs because the Allies felt that the bombing was a way to help end the war. However, the Englishman states that Dresden is “open city” and “undefended and contains no war industries or troop concentrations.” If this were true, what would be the purpose of Dresden being bombed? I think Vonnegut has the Englishman say this in the novel to show how the bombing was a symbol of madness and uselessness.
Vonnegut chose that fate because of the things he criticizes in the novel. The way Vonnegut describes humans, and especially how they interact with each other, shows how unstable the society, as a whole, is. He often criticizes the war and how it hurt more than it helped. He also shows how it affected those who fought in the war, and how they did not function like normal citizens. Vonnegut may feel that these attributes of the American society specifically may lead to its down fall. Ultimately it further expresses Vonnegut’s dislike of the current society and he depicts its flaws as the fate of the country as a whole.
Vonnegut flips the fate of the United States because he writes science fiction. I don't think he has much faith in the States (or the world?) and maybe thinks he would do a better job. Also, I think he believes that writers and musicians and artists have just as much influence on the country as politicians or cops. If the world he created in the then-future (S-H5 published 1969) is screwy and dilapidated, that may have put different ideas into reader's minds. Vonnegut may have a hint of nihilism in his thoughts, but also tries to keep things light with catchphrases and risque jokes. But I like his idea with the Tralfamadorians seeing death/dying as just another moment of time and seeing time spread out like mountains.
Also, Vonnegut comparing Dresden to Oz is interesting because, like Dorothy, who hailed from Kansas, he (and the other soliders) possibly had never really seen any big cities with beautiful architecture and businesses and museums. They may have been enchanted (at least for a short while). All the men just wanted to go home, too.
Also, yes! Billy is an extremely unreliable narrator. I don't believe a word he says...
Lazzaro is a very interesting character to me. The way he stresses to the others that “the sweetest thing is revenge” is uncomfortable. His insecurity is rough and almost annoying. He claims to know people in high places who could kill almost anyone he wants on his “list”, and then presumes to tell Billy how he is going to die. I don’t know if the war has made him this way or if he has always had this outlook. His no nonsense attitude he is trying to stress is too much, it’s hard to tell if he is serious of if he is bluffing to warn people not to mess with him.
I don’t think Billy is cheating on Valencia when he is sleeping with Montana because I do not believe it really happened. I think it is all in Billy’s head, and he has made an alternate world in his mind to block or erase all of the war memories. Tralfamadore seems to be a safe place for Billy to escape to in his mind to get away from the awful war scene. Also, as stated in a previous chapter Billy is not really in love with his wife, and this could be another reason for the fantasy of Montana as well. Montana is the perfect woman in Billy’s mind, and Valencia is everything opposite. But I don’t think the affair was real, therefore he did not cheat.
I wonder why Vonnegut packs so much anger and hatred for the human (and animal) race into such a physically small character as Lazzaro. It is scarey that his mind devises these plans for peoples death in such a violent manner.
Dartboards and pool tables might be incorporated into the war by Vonnegut to emphasize the idea of war as a game to some people. These are activities that people engage in as hobbies, is that how he thinks some people feel about war?
Kayla: It is very interesting that Billy dies on the same day as Dresden is bombed. I agree that it was to symbolize his mental and physical death on that day. He was never stable after the war and he could never talk about it even when Valencia asked about it.
The idea that death is just violet light and a hum makes me think about what is trying to be said about life and death. Death is a huge theme in the novel, and it is used to portray the gift of life. It is obvious that Billy Pilgrim does not believe in an afterlife, and neither do Tralfamadorians. They only focus on living moments, because those are the only thing that truly matters.
Billy takes in the beauty of Dresden with his new eyes since he knows that it will be destroyed in the bombing. People often don't realize what they have until it is gone. Billy didn't realize the beauty of Dresden until he saw that it was not going to be there anymore. If people would just appreciate what they have they would have the lasting memories forever. Instead they wait until it is too late and they don't get to experience the real joys of people, places and things.
it seems like the narrator knows what is true and what isn't, and is keeping it vague by not stating whether billy is telling the truth when he speaks or not.
he keeps reminding us because this is what billy has to deal with. every time he sees edgar, all he can think about is edgar getting shot. it's such an overpowering memory that he can't enjoy edgar's presence anymore.
dart boards and pool tables are just another way the british men pretend they're not in a war.
at first glance, i thought lazzaro was all talk, but as we learned, it obviously wasn't. he's crazy!
vonnegut probably chose this fate because that is how he felt the US was going to end up. we're a petty country so we split up and become weaker and start to fall.
how do they know what death is if no one is there?
dresden is compared to oz because it's a place the narrator thinks is incredibly beautiful, in many ways, even though he's never heard of it before.
we always think we'll find something even more beautiful, and we don't realize until it's almost too late that there might not be.
People don’t generally take in the beauty of things until it’s too late because they take things for advantage. They are too busy with their lives to not look around them and take in everything that surrounds them. People don’t realize that at any moment in time something could be destroyed or taken away from them. They don’t see the beauty in things usually until it’s gone and too late.
I read this on page 137, "Outside were Golgotha sounds of strong men digging holes for upright timbers in hard, hard ground". The word "Golgotha" in this phrase is actually a biblical allusion. It is know as the site of the Crucifixion, and Christian tradition places Golgotha west of the city of Jerusalem. In addition, the name has a meaning of "skull" or "place of a skull". I found that Golgotha appears in the novel as an adjective, instead of an actual place, to describe sounds Billy was awakened by from the men working hard and endlessly.
Grace’s comment about the word “listen” really got me thinking. I also find myself visualizing the scenario in this book a lot. I also feel like it is the author’s way of trying to keep us interested in the book and to make sure we are paying attention. Sometimes I find myself drifting off while reading, but little comments like “listen” get me back into it.
I agree with Alex about Vonnegut reminding us about Derby’s fate. I also felt that it showed how the future cannot be changed. It showed us that the Tralfamadores were the ones who taught him about people being alive in other places while dead in reality. Vonnegut doesn’t want us to be too close with Derby.
Throughout the whole story, Vonnegut repeatedly reminds us of Edgar Derby, the high school teacher who eventually gets shot. I think he is doing this to build up more irony on the character because his death will be the the climax of the story. Vonnegut is making old Derby known as a main character in the novel.
I think that Vonnegut is trying to prove a very important point by giving Billy the ability to know about the bombing of Dresden prior to its actual destruction. Some people believe that humans are not meant to know the future because our minds are not capable of handling this knowledge. Yet, Vonnegut has a very different approach. Billy knows about the bombing that will occur, and rather than letting it upset him or trying to change it he simply accepts that it is what it is and appreciates the beauty of Dresden while it still is there. Others may have wasted the time they had left trying to change it or mourning over the future loss, and eventually they would come to regret their actions. They were not able to appreciate its beauty one last time and be forced to live knowing its gone forever, but this is not how Billy feels. Therefore, due to his beliefs and concept of time, he feels like he had an advantage because he was able to look at the city differently than everybody else.
The game of darts and pool have very simple rules to follow. The men take comfort in playing these games because war affects the men both physically and psychologically since the rules of war are unclear to them.
The metaphorical line in the dirt drawn by the Englishman expresses the rules that the men must follow to avoid severe consequences. The men's best bet is for them to follow the actions of the Englishman.
I think that the reason Billy constantly brings up the fate of Derby is because he is trying to bring home the idea that fate is predetermined. It somehow brings the death of Derby to a lower degree. It helps Billy deal with the fact that a man he has been with for so long has died because he knows that he is and always live in the other moments of his life.
In this novel, Vonnegut repeatedly brings up Edgar Derby, the high school teacher who eventually gets shot. I believe he is doing this to build up more irony on the character because his death will be the the climax of the story. I agree with Kourtney on saying Vonnegut is making Derby a main character in the story starting in this chapter.
People don't generally take in beauty until its to late because they believe there is always more time to do something as simple as admire the beauty of a city. While the Englishmen said that Dresden wasn't worth bombing that might not be how the Germans feel considering that they have a large pow compound in the city.
What sparked the most interest with me this chapter was the death part. The violet light and hum are a shock to me because of how I view death, the same as most people in society. Heaven is a place for the soul after death and the book challenged this thought, just as it has challenged our thought on time. I often think "what if" while reading this book. Death in the book is very morbid and depressing. The emptiness of death in this book. I enjoy how thought provoking Vonnegut made his novel because it makes the book's pages turn on their own.
Billy did not time travel to his death. I reread this part, because I assumed that, since he time travels frequently, that he does die. But he is only explaining his death after Lazzaro promises to kill him in the future. Is there a reason he does not travel there and just explains it?
Poor old Edgar Derby. That's how the narrator constantly refers to Derby. He also mentions frequently that he will soon be dead. Maybe this will be a key point in the novel?
I hate the statement that Lazzaro makes, that revenge is the sweetest thing. He has nothing to live for besides his hate for others and the thoughts of insane killings. The part that described what he did to the dog shocked me. I would have appreciated if the narrator had left that out...
I think the significance of the narrator comparing Dresden to Oz is because even though the city looks wonderful, it is not as great as it seems. The city is still suffering from the war, even though it has not been bombed or attacked.
The dome Billy speaks at in the future is geodesic. He also lived in a geodesic dome while on Tralfamadore.
I think Vonnegut keeps on reminding us that Edgar Derby will be shot because Billy has already seen it happen and it is what billy thinks of when he sees Edgar. I think Vonnegut is make it so we just hear what Billy thinks, all the random thoughts that pop into his head, instead of making it so we are reading a journal.
Our everyday world is fast-paced. No one can afford to slow down and expect to survive. People don’t notice the beauty around them because they are moving too fast and they don’t pay attention. In Billy’s case, he already knew that Dresden was going to be bombed so he took a closer look at the city while he had the chance. If everyone knew how long things were going to last, how long people were going to live, or how long they were going to live, I think everyone’s respect for their surroundings would change. They might cherish every moment they had because there would be a time limit to everything.
Lazzaro’s canine revenge scares me. As I was reading I thought to myself, “who would come up with this?” I feel as if Lazzaro is full of hatred and holds grudges. I also found it scary that he plans ways to kill people, as well as the dog. Lazzaro has not one forgiving bone in his body which I think he needs to acquire. I would like to say that Lazzaro is a big talker, but I cannot be sure. He definitely creeps me out and I’m just reading the book.
Sadly, it is very true that most people don’t realize what they have until it’s gone. People tend to take advantage of what they have. We are too busy with our lives to take a moment and appreciate the little things in life. We don’t realize what’s truly important in our lives until it’s gone.
At first, I didn’t really get the Cinderella reference. I think that just how Cinderella fit perfectly into her shoes, Billy fit perfectly into his life. Just like the tralfamadorians way of thinking, everything that happened to him was supposed to happen to him. The ugly stepsisters tried to prevent Cinderella from trying on the shoe, but in the end the shoes met its rightful owner and everything happened the way it was meant to happen.
I think it's strange how Vonnecut keeps dragging out the death of Edgar Derby. Why this specific person?
I think people don't see beauty untill it's too late because they are too busy trying to look for it some where else. People over look the the most simplest things.
I feel bad for the character Edward Derby. I feel like the only significant thing about him is his death. I think Vonnegut keeps reminding the reader of his death because it is going to be very important in the story. I agree with Alexis about her idea of Derby being conformed to be a lower character in the story. I wish that Derby did not have to die because i really enjoy reading about his character, he seems to be genuine and true in nature.
I was shocked by Lazzaro's abuse to the dog. I think his idea on revenge couldn't be more wrong. Revenge is not sweet, it might seem justified to the person seeking it, but 99% of the time it is going to lead to no good. Seeking revenge against a defenseless dog is horrifying to me. I love dogs and i really don't think it was necessary to add this section to the novel as a whole. It really created some disdain in my mind for Lazzaro as a character.
Lazzaro’s canine revenge was extremely offending and really disgusting. I don’t really see how a human being could do such a thing to an animal, but I guess that is just how some people are. He reminds me of a bully, always looking for revenge and won’t be satisfied until he gets his revenge, no matter how gruesome it is. I also feel that Lazzaro puts out this big appearance to make him look bigger and tougher than he actually is, maybe to make people take him seriously. The planned revenge on the Blue Fairy Godmother seemed like exactly what I mentioned above, all talk and no action. I really think that Billy has nothing to worry about and I therefore consider Lazzaro just a big talker. Although Lazzaro is just a talker, I do think that he is a man of his word and will hold people to this word no matter what.
“The state of the United States has changed. There are "20 petty nations" instead of one that is united. Chicago has been hit by a hydrogen bomb that was dropped by "angry Chinamen." These things have not actually taken place in history. What is the idea behind these facts? Why does Vonnegut choose this fate for the United States?”
I think this further explores the Tralfamadorian’s idea of the different timelines. Perhaps this is a separate timeline. Perhaps Billy traveled to a point where something in the past went differently and altered the future he knew. I like that Vonnegut decided on this fate for the United States. We seem to think that this country is invincible, but it’s not. Nothing is. This is a perfect example of that fact. There are a million things that could go wrong and lead to a downfall for the US, but fortunately, fate has been fairly kind to us thus far.
Generally, people don’t take in beauty until it’s too late because they take it for granted. They assume that the beauty will always be there for them to admire, so they pass on by and perhaps plan to return to it another day. They don’t realize that anything can be wiped from existence at any given moment. Another reason is that people are always in too much of a rush. They are constantly racing to get things done and get through another day. Stopping to take in the scenery isn’t an idea that crosses many people’s minds very often, because everyone is always too busy working or partying or running errands. Even I am guilty of this ignorance, but I try to remember to enjoy beauty when I find it.
People wait to take in the beauty of something before it is too late, because most of us are focused on the now and what we are in search of at that current moment. It is not until later or after someone else has pointed out something beautiful that we decide to take it in. Taking in beauty also goes with age. I feel that the older a person is, the more they are likely to stop and take everything around them in and remember it for what it is worth. Often times, younger people are too focused on what is next to focus on what they have at a given moment.
The fact that Billy doesn't question the lumps comes back down to Billy being somewhat of a coward. He knows they'll be beneficial to him if he leaves well enough alone, so he just leaves them alone. A braver, though maybe dumber, man would have disreguarded the insight and tried to sneak a peek at what the lumps where.
Billy is able to truly appreciate the beauty of Dresden because he knows that it will not last long. He may also be better able to appreciate the beauty of the town because he has not lived there. He tries to take everything in while he still can.
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