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How can you know the plane is going to crash and not say something -- allow people the opportunity to make their peace with God, for instance?
How does the nature of the Polish songs characterize Lionel Merble?
Billy was in a mental institution, and now we find out he had a massive head injury in the plane crash...could this explain the fact that his narration is questionable at best? Later it states that -- while unconcious from surgery -- billy "dreamed millions of things, some of them true. The true things were time travel." True according to whom?
Why do you think Vonnegut includes the scene with the women showering?
Interesting to see how Vonnegut described the spooning of vitamins. It was as if his body was thanking him...Have you ever craved some type of nourishment and had your body thank you?
49 comments:
I couldn't believe that Billy wouldn't tell people about the plain going to crash. However, then I started to think people react in three ways when it comes to chaotic situations. They either pretends like nothing is going on case their fate is sealed and there isn't anything anyone can do about what already happened. People can also act like a nut job and then there is the calm person. They are the person who seems to be doing the rational thing, whatever it maybe. I don’t think he wanted them to know the plane was going down because everyone seemed happy. Why would anyone want to ruin that moment in time where everything was good. This way no one could say they had any regrets, because there wasn’t time to think about what could have been.
I think that Vonnegut included the scene with the women showering because it really shows how nothing phases Billy. Most men who are serving in the military haven't been around women, let alone naked women, for long periods of time. It is surprising then, that none of the men made remarks or cooed to the girls, they just blankly stared and left to find the kitchen like nothing had happened.
In my opinion, I think Vonnegut includes the scene with the women showering to show that the men in war were truly boys who had not seen naked women. It is ironic how the men were not affected by seeing many dead people in war. However, in the scene with the women showering they feel emotion at the simple sight of nudity.
It didn't surprise me at all that Billy didn't tell people the plane was going to crash when he knew it was going to. He is so apathetic about life that he probably didn't think that it mattered either way. Billy might've also thought that people would look at him as "crazy" especially because of the incident with the Trafalmadorians back in chapter 2.
I can tell Lionel Merble is very vulgar. The songs were graphic and he enjoyed them. When it's apparent he likes stuff like that, you can tell he's sort of dirty...
Once again, Billy is never one way or another with things so that could be why Vonnegut included the naked women scene. It didn't seem to bother him or excite him; he just didn't really care. The author continuously stresses the point that Billy is indifferent about life in general, so why would this situation be of any difference?
It did not surprise me when Billy did not tell anyone else that the plane was going to crash. He knew that the future could not be changed so why put people in a panic. Humans do not react well to change, and most could not easily accept the fact that they are about to die. Most of the other passenger would either not believe Billy or would run around trying to change what cannot be changed. Also, Billy does not really like being the center of attention. He is not what most people would call a “people person” . Furthermore, Billy really does not want to be judged. People may call him crazy, or people may think that he sabotaged the plane. So by Billy not saying anything, he saved himself from judgment and causing panic on the plane.
It didn't surprise me that Billy didn't warn anyone about the plane crash. Once Billy knew he couldn't do anything about the future, he felt no need to warn anyone. Also, he knew he was going to live, despite how bad of a crash it would be.
I wasn't surprised that Billy didn't tell anyone the plane was going to crash. It's like the Trafalmadorians and the end of the universe, they know how it will happen, when it will happen, and who will cause it to happen, but no matter what they do it will always happen. Billy telling the passengers that they were going to die would just panic everyone, but would change nothing. I don't think that people would even believe Billy if he told them that the plane were to crash.
To me finding out that Billy was in a mental institution really discredits him as a narrator, it leads me to doubt that he is telling the story accurately or from his own delusions. He only decides to tell his abduction story after he is released from the institute, for all we know he imagined the entire experience. Billy's story only seems to be true to him and people like him, the only correlation between Billy's abduction and everyone's reality is the disappearance of Montana Wildhack. I do not think that the story Billy has narrated is completely accurate, his mind was damaged in the crash and he hasn't been firmly planted in reality since.
After a bad sunbun, the human body is so dry and craves water. Your feet and hands are dry, your skin peels, and your back and headache. Once you get that glass, or three, of water your body starts to feel well again. It's thanking you for giving it what it wants, what it needs. After having terrible food, Billy felt this way about the syrup. It tasted so good, and it felt so good in his body.
I think that Billy didn’t tell anyone that he knew the plane was going to crash, was because he already knew that he was going to make it. He wasn’t too worried about it, and said that they were all machines. Billy really didn’t have the emotional factor playing in his decision.
I was shocked that Billy didn't tell anyone the plane was going to crash! Just kidding. It was a very Billy-Pilgrim-like thing to do. He didn't think telling anyone would matter, because the moment couldn't be changed anyway. Why cause a panic for no reason?
I was not surprised Billy did not warn anyone the plane was going to crash. He knew he could not change the situation and whatever was going to happen would happen whether he liked it or not. I think he felt it was better if it crashed while people were dumbfounded and did not know what was going on rather then crazy and chaotic. I also wonder if he did not tell anyone because he was not exactly sure if people would believe him if he told them.
Billy didn't react to save the people on the plane because he felt that there was no need to. According to the Tralfamadorians, everything that happens is occurring within the same moment. So according to Billy, telling the others would have been useless because the plane crash already happened. If this perception of reality was true and Billy did know the future, warning the others would have no effect on what already occurred. Since Billy accepts the fate of everyone on the plane, he had no motivation to tell them.
I've craved nourishment plenty of times and my body has thanked me. On hot day when I'm dehydrated, water gets me through. On a day when I'm tired or unable to pay attention, sugar does the trick. And on a day when I'm sick, eating and drinking in general provides the energy my body needs in order to fight off the sickness. In all these examples, my body has thanked me by making me feel more awake and energetic.
I think that Billy did not tell people that the plane was going to crash because of the ideas of the Tralfamadorians that you cannot change the future. The same way that they will not and cannot change the way they will ruin the earth by allowing that captain to press the button. He believes he cannot tell because that is just the way it is supposed to be.
I didn't expect Billy to tell everyone on the plane that it was going to crash. He does not think of death as other humans do, but as the Tralfamadorians think of death. He is not saddened by the deaths of the other companions on the plane. I agree, that he also does not think he can alter the future or should alter it. He learned everything from the Tralfamadorians and behaves as they do.
I was not surprised when Billy kept the fact that the plane was going to crash to himself. He believes in fate as the Tralfamadorians do. He sees it as if it is meant to be it is going to happen. He knows that the future is already written and it cannot be changed. I agree with the fact he did not tell anyone. If it is already written in history and cannot be altered, why tell everyone and make them panic? I believe he made the right decision.
if he told the people the plane was going to crash, the event would occur differently than it did the first time, and that's a time-travelling no-no. but also, he knows they'll always be alive at other points in time, so it doesn't bother him when in the timeline people die.
vonnegut included the shower scene to show that even when humans are in the absolute worst condition, and even about to be killed, they're worried about how they're perceived by other people
I don’t think Billy told anyone the plane was going to crash because he knew it was going to happen one way or another and he didn’t want to mess with fate. Also, I think he didn’t want to create hysteria among the passengers if he warned that it was going to crash. He probably figured to let the crash happen and let the passengers die kind of in a peaceful state of mind rather that in a terrified state.
I agree with Erin when I say that I believe Vonnegut included the scene with the women showering because it proves how much war truly does change a man, but also that Billy really does not have anything that effects him. Men that are in the service overseas usually are away from their wife, girlfriend, or any women in general for months at a time. It was surprising that none of the three men said or reacted... at all! They just stared without any expression and then shut the door without saying anything to each other. But through the reactions of those men, it shows how much war effects the mind.
I totally agree with Allison about the women showering scene. The fact that they see a million dead people in war everyday and they are unaffected, yet they are emotional seeing naked woman, just shows that Vonnegut continues to use irony and other literary devices to keep us interested in the book.
I also wasn’t surprised when Billy didn’t tell anyone about the plane. He knew it was going to happen, but there wasn’t really anything he was going to be able to do about it, so he didn’t tell anyone because he couldn’t change anything. Also, people could have been skeptical if Billy told them the plane was going to crash, so he just didn’t tell anyone.
The fact that Billy failed to inform the other passengers that the plane was going to crash bothers me, and yet to some degree I understand why he didn’t. While I feel it would be the “right” thing to do to tell them that they were going to die, I see how it could turn out to be the “wrong” thing to do. Theoretically when someone is told that they are going to die they should enjoy every minute they have left, but this is not always the case. Some people go into denial, which is likely in Billy’s case because he has no evidence to back up his predictions. Other people may see that they have little time left and that time becomes filled with sorrow and emptiness. However, none of this matters to Billy because he is stubborn in his beliefs. During his time traveling he saw things happen this way and therefore that is the way it must be.
I wasn't surprised with Billy's decision to not tell anyone about the plane crash, as well. Throughout the novel he's been going along with the idea that things happen for a reason but no one really knows why. He's also held to the idea that death is supposed to happen and its a way of life. He knew no one was going to believe him and, therefor, he didn't see any significance in telling people and causing a scene. I did, however, find it a bit odd that he was the only one besides the copilot to survive. I also believe that the brain damage from the plane has made his narration very questionable as well as other hardships he has gone through in his life.
According to Billy, time is not linear. Therefor, it is irrelevant for the people on the plane to know what was going to happen for them to make peace with God. Because, to Billy, even though the people are said to be dead, he believes that they are still alive in another time and place. Also, the mere possible of Billy telling the people on the plane ahead of time of the crash, may cause adverse affects on the future. (If 'future' exists in the mind of Billy Pilgrim)
I believe the reason Billy didn't tell the others that the plane was going to crash was because he knew that it would induce mass hysteria. Billy isn't the type of person who can handle a lot of screaming people. Another reason could be that he believes that the people will always live on in other memories so he doesn't find it necessary? I'm not sure. Billy is one strange character.
I agree with Heather on saying that Billy did not tell people that the plane was going to crash because of the ideas of the Tralfamadorians that you cannot change the future. The same way that they will not and cannot change the way they will ruin the earth by allowing that captain to press the button. I think Billy believes he cannot say anything because that's just the way it's supposed to be.
Billy's mind was already warped before the plane crashed, after the crash the reader is unable to tell what is true based who is giving the the reader the information. The truth to Billy may be unrealistic to people who haven't interacted with the Tralfamadorians and in his mind, he doesn't see the need to warn the passengers on the plane of the upcoming crash.
Billy's head injury from the plane crash could definitely explain his questionable narration. Was he admitted into the mental institution solely because of his head injury, or was he showing signs of mental illness? Either way, these factors do nothing to support his stories about time travel and Tralfamadorians. Since the narrator seems to doubt Billy's accountability, it would have to be that the "true" things that Billy dreamed were true only according to him.
Knowing that the plane would crash and freely letting it happen with no warning is a shock to me. I agree that they should at least make their peace and leave their loved ones behind with no regrets. I also see how some people would say it was their fate and nature had to take their course. When this chapter happened in the novel I questioned myself what I would have done, I eventually came to a conclusion that in his shoes I would of said something. Knowing future events that end badly should
What sparked the most interest with me this chapter was the death part. The violet light and hum are a shock to me because of how I view death, the same as most people in society. Heaven is a place for the soul after death and the book challenged this thought, just as it has challenged our thought on time. I often think "what if" while reading this book. Death in the book is very morbid and depressing. The emptiness of death in this book. I enjoy how throught provoking Vonnegut made his novel because it makes the book's pages turn on their own.
His body thanking him for the nourishment related to how my body has needed a break after sports. Sports wear you down mentally and physically and eventually you get into a rut. My body has hurt from every muscle to every emotion being triggered. In a sense it was craving relaxation a break from the abuse of a long sports season. Like this past week I was at a volleyball camp and we played about 12 hours everyday for four days. Right not my shoulder throbs and I have a torn groin, my body is screaming for some nourishment of letting it catch back up with how much I have been doing. I know this does not compare to having no food in your stomach, but the body needs nourishment in many ways and myn is defintaely telling me something now. This weekend when I am out on the boat my body will thank me in the form of letting me be able to walk without limping.
In the beginning of chapter 7 Billy calls his father-in-law a machine, and repeats that all people are machines, whether they agree with it or not. I believe he is calling people machines at this part because he knows everyone will die. They do not have a choice anymore, just as machines have no choice but to obey their programmer.
Lionel's character is put into context when Vonnegut describes him as a machine, even though all creatures are machines (as Vonnegut says). Although we know very little of Valencia's father, they are a bit alike (one likes food, the other sex) and I am willing to put money on the fact that Valencia is a total "daddy's girl."
Also, I thought it was interesting when Vonnegut wrote in about Billy being semi-concious and hearing the Austrian skiers conversing and then Billy saying "Schlachthof-funf" because it gives me the impression that the nerve endings in his brain were firing and making connections with WWII, and straightaway after Billy is put into the hospital Vonnegut swoops back into Dresden. Perfect transition.
I enjoyed reading the bit where Billy and the other factory workers swipe syrup for themselves. They deserve it. My favourite part of the book is when Billy gives Derby the syrup and he cries. It is so sad at the same time that it is funny. And straight after Derby gets his "vitamins" it is taken away from him... poor guy. Also liked that "ravenous gratitude and applause" part. Great sentence.
Along with everyone else, it didn't surprise me at all that Billy didn't warn the others that the plane was going to crash. He's so emotionless, and so careless, that he just sat back and waited it to happen. Also, death is such a common thing for him. He was probably thinking something along the lines of, "Well, all these people are going to die eventually so why not have it happen now?" I think that this was a very typical Billy move. He knew that he was going to be safe, and could continue time traveling, so he was content.
I think the reason why Billy didn’t tell anyone about the plane crashing was because he knew that nothing would change. He understands that it will happen no matter what he does. If Billy happened to tell everyone, they would either think he’s crazy and ignore him or panic. Since it’s bound to happen, Billy would rather just let the people die in peace.
I think Billy didnt say anything about the plane crashing because he knows there is nothing anyone could do about it, and by not saying anything, the other passengers did not suffer knowing that they were going to die, and there was nothing they could do about it.
The massive head injury could explain the questionable narration. His mind has probably been damaged from the crash, causing him to believe things that arent really real. For example, the things he dreamed that were "true" were most likely only true to him . He chose to see them as real when they probably werent.
As most people said, I am not surprised that Billy didn’t speak up about the plane crash. Even though he knew it was going to happen he probably didn’t want to mess with fate. Also, I think Billy doesn’t think that death is that big of a deal. Whenever a death is mentioned he always follows with the phrase, “so it goes.” I think Billy realizes that death is just another part of life and it will happen eventually.
I totally agree with Erin that Vonnegut included the scene with the women to show that nothing bothers Billy. The incident didn’t even seem to faze him. We know how most guys would react to seeing naked girls, and Billy had no reaction. I think Vonnegut wanted to emphasize that war can/does change people. By being alone and away from home, war can emotionally and physically drain a man.
The reason Billy doesn’t tell anyone on the plane that it will crash is because he believes in what the Tralfamadorians say. They told Billy that no matter what, he can’t change fate. Billy knew that the plane was going to crash and the others didn’t. Also, he didn’t want everyone on the plane to panic and have their last moments be chaotic. Besides, most of the passengers would have just thought that Billy was crazy and wouldn’t have believed him. There was no reason for Billy to say anything.
I think billy didn't say anything about the plane crash because maybe he didn't want thier last few seconds two be panicked or scared. Maybe he wnted them or to be happy. Or maybe he just didn't really care. He also maybe thought that even if he said something it wouldn't change the fate of the people on the plane.
The showering scene was really interesting to me. Along with Erin, i feel like this displays how Billy is not phased by much. He travels through life with such a different view from all other people. I can't decide if i feel like he is better off because of this, or worse. It surprised me that the men walked away from the naked, beautiful women without making a crude comment or innuendo. But it was pleasing to me that the characters seemed to have a higher moral compass in this area.
The fact that Billy told no one about the plane crash was to be expected. I agree with Kelsey completely, telling everyone else would have only created panic and nothing productive would have come of it. I think it was Billy's own way of protecting everyone else he was with. The Tralfamadorians have instilled the belief in Billy that no matter what, he can not change anything. So his actions make sense when you put that into perspective. It seemed very natural of is character to hide the knowledge, rather than scare everyone else.
I too found this whole spooning scene very interesting, especially the way that Vonnegut described it. I would think that spooning straight vitamins over a span of a few weeks would begin to be unhealthy but it seemed to make the soldiers better, probably because they had been malnourished for so long. When I read this scene it reminded me of a scene in Charlie and the Chocolate factory with the vitamin liquid being like chocolate. The soldiers almost treated it like chocolate. I can’t say that I have ever craved some type of nourishment and have my body thank me. The only thing that could come close would probably be when I get dehydrated and I drink a lot of water all at once, I instantly feel better.
It strikes my interest that Billy doesn't tell anyone else on the plane about the fact that it's going to crash. On one hand, we can assume that these other passengers will not believe Billy anyways, but is there a deeper motivation behind his withholding of information? To me, it seems like Billy is almost playing God with these passengers and the time traveling over all. Billy knows what is happening in the past, present, and future, yet he never shares any of this information with anyone else. The reader can assume that this is by choice because Vonnegut never states that Billy is unable to tell about his travels, and eventually he does start talking about how he comes unstuck in time. So, the question I keep asking is, why is Billy Pilgrim playing God?
“How can you know the plane is going to crash and not say something -- allow people the opportunity to make their peace with God, for instance?”
First of all, it’s quite unlikely that anyone would even believe you. They would probably just assume that you’re crazy or delusional. Humans have a tendency to mistrust others, it seems, and they often have to see or experience something to believe it. Besides, it really wouldn’t be your place to meddle with events that are supposed to take place. It sounds harsh, but if something happens, then obviously it was meant to happen or it wouldn’t have happened. Even if you did save dozens of lives, it may set off a chain reaction between subsequent events and cause something even worse to happen. An entity as monumental as time isn’t meant to be trifled with. The consequences of such actions may be worse than anything you could possibly imagine.
“Interesting to see how Vonnegut described the spooning of vitamins. It was as if his body was thanking him...Have you ever craved some type of nourishment and had your body thank you?”
Of course I have. It happens to everyone all the time. Whenever your body needs nutrients from food, it alerts your brain, and you experience hunger. Generally, this leads to you eating and therefore providing your body with the nutrients it desires. Afterwards, you feel satiated and energized. That is your body’s way of thanking you. It’s the same when you’re out and about on a hot, sunny day and your body demands water or after a long day when you start to feel tired and decide to go to bed. Even if you don’t realize it, your body thanks you in its own way whenever you meet its needs.
Like with sleep, when the human body goes without something for a long time, obtaining it seems that much better. When Billy spoons vitamins, his body seems to thank him for it. Similarly, when an athlete has done strenuous exercise and drinks fluids, their body thanks them equally.
The songs characterize Lionel Merble because they are fun and carefree. While the lyrics are a tad barbaric, they are nonetheless just silly songs. It shows a man that still remembers his young days and doesn't know the horrors of war. Where as with Billy he is too tormented by the war to remember those carefree days.
Why would Billy tell anybody the plane would crash? I know I wouldn't. He may have known what was about to happen, he may have known he was right, but other people would have just hear crazy talk from a man that may be afraid to fly.
Billy also knows shouting futures out to anybody involved won't change anything major. So, what would his incentives be to warn the poor people on the plane? If they did decide to listen, it'd just cause chaos and panic, and their last few moments could be terrifying as opposed to unknowing.
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