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Who has an orange and black striped tent for a wedding? Jack Skellington?
I find it interesting that Billy knows he's going to be abducted by aliens, yet he does nothing to change this fact. Wouldn't he at least hide? Why do you think he does nothing to change his fate?
"So it goes." Even when it's just a bottle of champagne that's gone dead...funny.
What did you think about the WWII movie that Billy described backwards?
When Billy asks, "Why me?", why do the Tralfamadorians say that this was a very human question?
I found it funny that a Barca-Lounger is used as part of the human habitat in the Tralfamadorian zoo...What does that suggest about humans?
Why do you suppose Billy is so violent when he sleeps? Do you think his lack of sleep caused him to break from reality?
Why does Weary claim that Billy Pilgrim killed him?
Before the spaceship arrives, there is a sound like an owl. When the train arrives at the extermination camp, there is a cooing sound...significant?
Billy seems to jump around in time a lot at the end of this chapter. Why do you think this happens here?
What is so baffling to the Tralfamadorians concerning free will? Are humans brilliant because they're the only ones in the universe concerned with free will, or are they foolish to believe there is such a thing as free will?
37 comments:
The Tralfamadorians say that "Why me" is a very human question. I think they say this because they are pointing out that although these are mysterious, alien creatures that humans have never seen, Billy Pilgrim is still concerned with his own importance. I think this question is emphasizing the arrogant nature of the human race. Rather than be concerned with these mystical new creatures from places beyond the stars, our human protagonist chooses to focus on why was he "chosen"? Is he "special"? Why out of all the humans on Earth should they "choose" him? And, I think that the Tralfamadorians find Billy's question to be in keeping with their perception of typical human behavior.
Why doesn't Billy change his fate...? I think it has to do with that quote he had in his office in the previous chapter. No matter how we would like to change an event we can't. The past is not something that we can tamper with nor, is the present or the future. Events are said to happen for a reason. Even the Aliens say that no matter what they did they were still the ones who destroyed the universe. No matter how they redid the event the still blew it up. Billy probably realized that no matter what he did the events outcome was going to be the same. Running from the event would have been childish and a waste of energy, because that event already happened and the outcome was going to be them taking him away. Let’s not forget that Billy liked everything that he managed to learn from the aliens so why would he want to change that. Even more so it wasn’t like he lost anytime on Earth either.
Nobody has a black and orange striped tent for their wedding unless their some freak who's in love with Halloween (that would be cool to dress up like that for a wedding, though). This is an example of how the war affected Billy. He strays from the normal white tents and instead adjusts to a black and orange one. The fact that the colors remind me of Halloween, which is closely related to death, is probably a symbol of how Billy has seen death and the other horrors of war. The war obviously made an impact on Billy and the wedding tent was an example.
One thing I noticed was the link from the color of the stripes on the tent to Billy’s past. When Billy is transported with his fellow prisoners of war in box cars he notices that at the end of each train there is a banner to label what the train carries. All of the trains that were carrying prisoners of war were labeled with a banner with black and orange stripes on it, this banner meant that the trains should be safe from airplanes. So in a way Vonnegut may be comparing marriage to being a prisoner of war. It seems somewhat extreme to me, but to some people it may be a proper comparison.
On a separate note I think the fact that Weary claims that Billy killed him is funny in a way. Weary’s need to be heroic killed him, not Billy. Billy told Weary multiple times that he should just go on without him and leave Billy. All Billy really wanted to do was die, he didn’t care about his life. Weary just wants to be seen as heroic, but the second that he has to sacrifice something real for a victim he changes his attitude and portrays himself as a victim, even though he was the one who chose his own fate. Weary as a character just seems very greedy and self-centered.
I really liked the way Vonnegut wrote the WWII film, how it seemed like the Germans were accomplishing something useful by taking the destruction away. It is interesting that he mention American women were the people who assembled these weapons because I think he is trying to point out the switch between the "frailty" of women and the hard death of the weapons. The objective point of view made me see it instantly, it was like the film was playing in my head as I read it. It made me wish that backwards was actually how wars take place.
I especially liked the quote on page 77 where the tralfamadorians tell Billy that we are stuck in the amber of the moment, and there is no why. I strongly agree with the first part- that we are in the amber of this moment. I find that the most enjoyable things and sometimes the worst things in life happen in the moment. I find preparation boring and I'd much rather take a road trip unplanned, or go somewhere extemporaneously. However, I do not agree with the second part of the statement. I believe there is a reason for everything said and done in life. I believe that every moment adds up to make us who we are.
Human beings are happy believing they have free will. It gives them a sense of peace to think that everything they do, they do by their own choice. Tralfamadorians, on the other hand, know that nothing is done by choice. Everything is already set, replaying somewhere in time over and over again. But where does it all start? Is there ever a point where we get to make our own choices, and then those choices are the ones that replay themselves? Or is everything predetermined? The Tralfamadorians claim to know all of this as a fact. But who's to say their vision isn't clouded? Maybe they're missing something, too.
The question "why me?" struck the Tralfamadorians as a very human question because they understand that things happen just because it does. Everything is what it is, and there is no question about it.
I found the reverse film of the war very interesting. When played forwards, it shows mass destruction and people dying. When played in reverse, it shows reconstruction and healing.
Weary began to die of gangrene that was spreading in the cuts of his feet. While dying, Weary would tell the stories to the other men of the “Three Musketeers” and how he should be avenged. The cause of his death, he claimed, was Billy Pilgrim. I believe Weary blamed Billy for his death because Billy shattered the dreams Weary had of war. Weary seemed to glorify the war, obsessing with weapons. Weary also would always talk about how he and the other scouts would become the “Three Musketeers” saving the life of Billy, the dumb college kid. Weary would continue to make Billy keep up with him and the scouts, until one day the scouts ditched both Weary and Billy. Weary’s dreams of the “Three Musketeers” had been shattered due to Billy, and he was now a dying prisoner in war.
I don't think that Billy is afraid of the aliens but actually enjoys being able to escape reality to visit this strange place with strange creatures. I also thinks he wants to learn more about these aliens, because the more he learns about them he learns more about him self and how time works with and agansit our choices.
One part I enjoyed reading in this chaoter was the reverse tape of the war. it showed rebuilding and not distruction. All I thought was how we could learn from this and change ou world. But with out distruction there woud be anything to rebuild and make better.There is no perfect society.
I really liked how Billy described the World War II movie when it was playing backwards. Vonnegut has a great way with words and I could easily imagine in my head what he described. I admire how Vonnegut creatively used his words in that depiction.
You know someone has stopped caring about everything, when he gets a too small jacket, and wears it like anything else. That was a sad part of this book for me. Most people would think it was funny, having a man wear a tiny coat. But if a sane mane tried to wear it, he would have taken it off. Everyone laughed at Billy, and he couldn't even feel embarrassed for himself, he didn't understand the concept. Imagine what it would feel like if he DID understand... and that's what makes it sad.
The Tralfamadorians say that "Why me?" is a very human question because it implies that the moment or situation could have fallen into someone else's fate. Tralfamadorians believe that every moment in time has always been occurring. Therefore, everything that happens has always happened and always will happen. In other words, we are meant to do and experience every part of our lives. The Tralfamadorians thought that Billy was asking an absurd question when he said, "Why me?" because it was obviously his destiny and no one else's. The human aspect of the question is that it exemplifies the human belief that they can create their own fates.
The Tralfamadorians don't agree with the concept of free will because they believe in fate. Every person is bound to moments in time in their mind. They believe that events in a person's life are determined before they actually happen. The Tralfamadorians can't understand free will because they believe that people don't have control over the events that happen in their life. They also believe that we are stuck in moments in time, like memories. Since the Tralfamadorians believe in fate so strongly, humans ideas on free will seem foolish.
I don’t think Billy hid partly because he wanted to be taken. He knew it was going to happen and he felt he couldn’t stop it. Also, I think he knew it was his fate to be taken and he didn’t want to mess with that. It’s kind of like the butterfly effect. If one tiny thing is disturbed or happens, that can lead to more things or something bigger to change.
I agree with Rosa about the differences between humans and tralfamadorians. When she says that human beings are happy believing they have free will, it is true that it does give them a sense of pride and peace to know that they have their own choice. Tralfamadorians are opposite; they know that nothing is by choice. It is set and it cannot be changed. I also agree with Jennifer about the question “why me?” The tralfamadorians accept things that happen because they believe things happen just because. They do not question why things happen; they assume it just happens because it does.
Response to Billy accepting the fact he is being abducted by aliens:
I think that he doesn't hide and does nothing to change his fate because he thinks he can't change his fate. In the previous chapter, Billy talks about the prayer that hangs in his office. It says, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom always to tell the difference." And after the prayer he says, "Among the things Billy Pilgrim could not change were the past present and future"(60). Billy doesn't believe he can change his fate, so he doesn't try to hide from the aliens.
billy does nothing to change his fate because that's how this whole time thing work. he can't changed his fate, it already happened, so it has to happen again. if it doesn't, then it wouldn't have happened in the first place.
i loved the backwards WWII movie, it had such a happier ending than the forwards version. i especially loved his comment about hitler becoming a baby, and then the human race perfecting itself in adam and eve.
as humans we say "why me?" because we can't accept that we're a "somebody else" to everyone we think is somebody else. when we get in an accident, we can't just think that someone had to get into it, and this time it was us, we have to ask why it can't be somebody else again this time.
weary claims that billy killed him because billy held the "three musketeers" back, so that means it's billy's fault he was captured, and his fault he was given the clogs, and so it was billy's fault he got gangrene.
I find it funny that Billy gets a orange and black striped tent for his daughters wedding. He uses the same colors that signaled prisoners of war as the colors of his daughters wedding tent, which gives the idea that he finds marriage as a type of imprisonment. I think Billy doesn't try and change the fact that he is going to be abducted because he believes that he cannot control his past, present, or future. The poem early in the novel states that you accept the things you cannot change, and I think Billy believes that he cant control his future, like it is predetermined.
I think Billy described the movie backwards to show how much he wished the war did not happen and how he wished they could all go back to being innocent kids. I think he hated the war and how much it ruined.
My first thoughts about the WWII movie being watched backwards was that Billy longed for peace, and by it being played backwards every bad thing that had been done was undone, the countries took apart and dismantled their bombs and placed them safe underground where no one would ever find them. The descriptions through this particular scene showed multiple scenario's of war turning to peace.
I believe that when it comes to free will that humans think that we are brilliant, but in the eyes of the Tralfamadorians, who can see all the moments of a persons life at one point, it is foolish. They can see what we will do, and we cant change it so we have no actual free will to change what will happen. Humans cant change what the Tralfamadorians will see in the future.
The Tralfamdorians don't believe in free will because they believe that every event is already set out to happen, that there is no way to change what will happen. Thus they think humans are foolish for their belief. Tralfamadorians see it that every moment always exists, therefor there is no way to change what is happening right now nor what will happen later because in their eyes what will happen is already known.
Weary blames Billy for his death because Weary thinks he would not have been captured if not for Billy's stupidity. This is probably true seeing as Weary is a top-notch fighter and had proper tools. Billy seemed to have shown up out of nowhere and asked to join the crew. Weary complains about saving Billy on 2+ occasions (that I can recall) and it doesn't really seem to register in Billy's mind that he was putting the whole group in danger.
Also, I was disappointed that Derby didn't keep his wish to the dying Weary (to kill Billy). You would think that a man would keep a wartime promise, or at least ask around for Billy's name. They were sitting side by side at one point, after all.
When Billy asks, "Why me?", the Tralfamadorians say that is a very human question because it reveals the limits of the human mind. The Tralfamadorians would never ask that kind of question because (as Jennifer had said), 'they understand that things happen just because it does'. Also, since the Tralfamadorians truly understand that the structure of time is beyond control for anyone. So in all they see what is important is how anyone interprets the events in life, and that is what certainly changes for Billy after he returns from the war.
When the prisioners were in the train traveling to the prision, Billy wanted a chance to lay down and sleep on the ground. The other prisioners began to complain and would not let him because they said that he kicked and was violent as he slept.
Billy is such a quiet person - he keeps all his emotions inside, especially in the war. He just went along with whatever was going on but never truthfully expressed how he felt. Maybe when he sleeps it is his time to release all his anger for the war and his life in general. Or he may be haunted in his dreams about the terrible things he has seen in the war, which causes the violence
I think the cooing sounds made by both the space ship and the German soldiers unloading the troops to go to the extermination camp go hand-in-hand with one another. To me, a cooing sound is made by a mother to comfort her child. So a cooing noise like the ones made in both of the above instances were for comforting purposes. The German soldiers were comforting the American soldiers by talking to them in a cooing tone, maybe giving them a false sense of security before they went into the extermination camp. The space ship made the cooing noise as a way to maybe not frighten Billy. The Owl cooing noise could also be a noise made when something arrives somewhere. The train arrived at the extermination camp and the space ship arrived to pick Billy up.
The Tralfamadorian’s say that “Why me?” is a very human question because they believe that everything happens just “because.” The Tralfamadorian’s do not question why, but just accept that things happen and they happen for a reason. Humans, on the other hand, always question why. This can be seen with little kids especially when they ask things like why is the sky blue? The Tralfamadorian’s realize that humans have mind that wonders and is curious, instead of just accepting what happens.
I also agree with Rachel. I did notice that Billy is a quiet person and I found it odd that he yells and becomes restless when he sleeps. I think he is hiding his emotions and pain from the war during the day, and lets them out at night when he sleeps (just like Rachel said).
I agree with Erin when she says that asking why me is typical of human behavior. Humans are usually only concerned with themselves and nothing else. I'm not sure anything would really change that either. You see it everyday when people want something they can't have or take something from others. They don't care if it wasn't theres. They wanted it so they got it. I can also compare war to this question because I'm sure that soldiers have asked why them and not some other country. I also think that when we have war to obtain land or something else we don't have that it's ebing selfish. Why can't we be happy with what we have and be able to share with everyone. If you don't like how something is done in a certain place, don't provoke war so you can go and change it, just don't go there. Just be concerned with hat you have and not with what you could have.
I’ve noticed how Vonnegut seems to use the owl as a significant symbol. He mentioned the owl earlier when he travelled back in time to his office where the owl was staring at him. The owl turned out to be the instrument he used to check people’s eyes to help them see. Now the owl is brought up again with the guards “owlishly” peeking into Billy’s car and his abduction when the hovercraft sounded like “a melodious owl”. I think that maybe Vonnegut is linking important moments of Billy’s life with the owl. An owl is closely associated with wisdom, death, and is known to have good eyesight. Billy earned wisdom with the Tralfamadorians, he saw death while on the boxcar and at the camp, and he was an optometrist that helped people to see.
I really think the main idea of this chapter is the Tralfamadorians trying to get the point out there that things just are what they are and there's no changing them. Things will just happen and people (Billy in particular) get so caught up in trying to change them that it causes more problem and confusion than solution. I think Billy is somewhat depressed and so far from reality that it's hard for him to sleep and when he does get to sleep his mind races...
In my opinion, Weary is chasing a Romantic ideal, and is living his life as a story of its own. He claims that Billy killed him, and that he wants to be avenged. Weary is led astray by delusions of grandeur, believing himself to be a hero. His outlook on war, although misguided, may have kept him in better spirits then the other men in his company. He was foolishly ambitious, but his dreams allowed him to live, for however short a time.
Humans are happy with the idea of being able to have free will because it makes them feels as though they do everything by their own choice, I agree with Rosa on this one. Tralfamadorians don't live by free will, quite frankly it's the total opposite. Everything is already set, replaying somewhere in time over and over again. The main idea of the chapter is showing that Tralfamadorains are trying to get the point out that things happen because they are supposed to happen that way and there is no sense in changing them. Billy is making the solution go awry because he is trying to change everything to make it better when actually he is making it quite worse..
The orange and black striped wedding tent did throw me for a loop, along with the zebra-striped wallpaper in the hallway, and his blue and ivory feet. The start of the chapter left me with a few visuals that paused me to stop and think about them and how Billy may of saw them. Anyway, when Billy just awaits the aliens to come and abduct him it his acceptance of how he views his fate and has no reason to want and change it because, in a sense, the event has already happened in parts that he has time traveled to. “Why me?” is a very human-like thing to say because of our view of how things are in a chronological order. We don’t just accept things the way they are, we need to know what led upt o that specific moment.
Weary claims Billy Pilgrim killed him because he did not have to save him the times that he did and he may believe that caused their capture. Ultimately Billy is simply Weary’s scapegoat because he won’t take responsibility of the events that got him to the spot where he is. Also his story’s are questionable since he planned on telling a far-from-the-truth story of what really happened with Billy when he got home to his family.
When the spaceship comes the owl sound relates with me to wisdom (maybe too much Winnie-the-Pooh as a kid). This could translate into the Tralfamdorians are wisdom-like and Billy could gain from their knowledge. Free will could be so baffling to them because they view everything as a certain and have never been able to experience otherwise. Relatable to how Billy does not comprehend that you need more than two sexes to make a baby.
Billys first question to the tralfamadorians is "why me?". They then respond with saying its a very earthling question of Billy. I think they see this as a human like question because people tend to ask why certain things happen. The Tralfamadorians believe things happen because that's just the way it is but to humans, we question what the reaason is for those things happening. We say why me to express our feelings of wonder and what the cause of it is.
“I find it interesting that Billy knows he's going to be abducted by aliens, yet he does nothing to change this fact. Wouldn't he at least hide? Why do you think he does nothing to change his fate?”
Perhaps he believes that he can’t change his fate, because it has happened before and therefore is inevitable. This goes back to the Serenity Prayer in chapter three. After the prayer, Vonnegut tells us that “Among the things Billy Pilgrim could not change were the past, the present, and the future.” If Billy believes that he cannot change the past, present, or future, then it does make sense that he didn’t try to avoid being abducted by the aliens. In his eyes, because the abduction happened before, it will happen again, regardless of what he does. So, he didn’t even bother to hide or run, because he believes it would have been pointless to do so anyways.
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