(Photo Courtesy: Tom Crafton)
This is a picture of my grandpap, Hazen Sumney. He was a blacksmith by trade, which probably explains why I feel so connected to this story.
So...Pip's sister is 20 years older than him, and he has five deceased siblings. Interesting that Pip only refers to his sister as Mrs. Joe.
Pip appears to have a good sense of humor, indicating that Joe was probably brought up by hand and that he was forced to marry Mrs. Joe by hand. Funny.
Joe is described as being "a Hercules in strength, and also in weakness." What does this mean? How is he weak?
What do you think accounts for the close relationship between Joe and Pip?
In the Connections selection "Class, Tradition, and Money," blacksmiths are said to be in a respectable position in this society. So what does Mrs. Joe have to complain about?
In your opinion, what causes Pip the most worry and consternation on this night? Explain your opinion.
23 comments:
Poor Joe, Hercule's physical strength, and Hercule's mental weakness, and a naggy wife too! Joe is a blacksmith, someone who works hard for their living. This hard work would account for Joe's strength, as can be seen in the fight between him and Orlick. His mental capacity, however, is less than someone would hope for; Pip continually tries to teach Joe, and Joe continually seems to forget. This lack of schooling, and the fact that both Joe and Pip are subject to Mrs. Joe, can account for their close friendship. Any child wouldn't view an adult that they are smarter than as a major superior and could feel more open to them, such is the case between Joe and Pip.
What I got from "a Hercules in strength, and also in weakness" is that Joe has the strength and will necessary to endure his wife's tyranny, but he doesn't have the strength to stand up for himself against her (upon googling, I found that Hercules' weakness was women). Joe has such a close relationship with Pip because of the cruelty that they both have to face; each is able to confide in the other, making it easier to take Mrs. Joe's abuse. The lack of affection in Pip's relationship with his sister is the reason why he only refers to her as "Mrs. Joe." She is not sisterly one bit, but more like a strict teacher, which distances her from Pip. On the topic of Mrs. Joe's complaints, perhaps she's not truly complaining about Joe being a blacksmith, but only saying these things to put him down and make him feel inferior. During Mrs. Joe's display of abuse in the chapter, Pip seems to take it all fairly well, obviously much more concerned about the fugitive he encountered earlier to pay much mind to his sister. He is willing to ask questions to get information, even when his sister is clearly upset. He hides his bread so that he would have something to give, even at the expense of Joe. And most of all, he risks being caught by his sister so that he could steal more food and the file, which would undoubtedly result in a beating had he been caught. Based off of this chapter, I am sticking to my prediction that Pip's "breaking out" will be both escaping his sister's control and growing out of his submissive personality, which is the result of his sister's cruelty (which we can also see with Joe).
I found that " A Hercules in Strength and also in Weakness" is that Joe is phsically strong due to his trade as a blacksmith. His mental weakness is what I guess as his inability to stand up for himself against his wife. Pip's sister is very domineering, not at all affectionate, and very harsh. Pip was always so opressed by her, that no bond was really forged between them. Therefore he calls her by an informal name, whereas he calls Joe by his first name because of their close bond. I think that Pip and Joe's bond was created mostly as a united front against Mrs. Joe. They were both treated poorly by her and had to endure her tempers and punishments. Their friendship was created as a result of the tyranny of Mrs. Joe.
Oh Joe. He is such a good sport! I can't even imagine how he must feel. His wife treats him like a 3 year old! I think it is very interesting that he is compared to Hercules in strength and weakness. It makes sense- he is physically strong, but emotionally, and relationally weak. He is brought down by his wife. Which is the reason for the close relationship between him and Pip. They are brought together by a "common enemy" so-to-speak. They have to join forces to be able to survive Mrs. Joe's "hand". Speaking of Mrs. Joe, it is odd that this is the only way Pip refers to her. I believe it is because he refuses to see her as anymore than a sister by law. He sees Joe as more "blood related" and the Mrs. Joe was the unfortunate "string attached". It is sad, in my opinion, that Pip and Mrs. Joe are at odds. Maybe it is because I am so close to my siblings, but it seems to me that if both their parents died, they should be united.
Joe is an interesting character. It seems that psychologically he's used to mental (and apparently physical) abuse, having been abused by his father in his childhood. He also seems to have a particular sensitivity to women because of the way his mother struggled to take care of him in his youth. Although uneducated, he seems to have a heart for selflessness and denials. So although he is physically strong (like Hercules), he has an enormous weakness when it comes to self-respect. (He seems to have almost none since he takes Mrs. Joe's beatings) Unfortunately for him that made him perfect bait for Mrs. Joe, who in addition to being a disrespectful and partly abusive woman, is, according to Joe, a "fine figure of a woman."
Honestly, I was dreading starting this book, buuuut…it seems even more than just alright. I found it quite odd and interesting that such female dominance and superiority was apparent in a book that old. I think that says so much about Dickens and his use of satire and/or his rebellion against societal norms. I also thought Pip’s “raising by the hand” comment was funny; I chuckled…loudly haha. I think the most attractive part of that comment, to me, was not the comment itself, but that I do not think Pip meant to be funny, but it is his young mind that could not fully grasp or understand the meaning of “being RAISED by hand.” For Mrs. Joe’s intention was not to raise Joe by the hand; it was more to abuse his weakness. Joe’s mentioned strength refers to his physical strength as well as his endurance. To an extent, I feel like Joe does not only keep up with Mrs. Joe for himself, but one of his reasons for not walking away is Pip, for Joe takes it upon himself to comfort and help Pip. His weakness, on the other hand, refers to his lack of defense against Mrs. Joe (which depending on the reason and intention of that lack of defense, it could be looked at as a weakness, or in fact, a strength). People always come together and put the petty differences and fights behind them during natural disasters or great tragedies. I think Pip and Joe’s bond is for the same reason, in order to toughen out and endure the difficult living conditions. I think a different view of blacksmiths is being taken in this book. From a monetary view point, blacksmith jobs along with other manual labor jobs are blue collar jobs, while the jobs that require little physical labor and a lot of mental thought in good comfortable settings are white collar jobs. The reason why blacksmiths are looked highly upon in much of literature is because it’s a noble job (while politicians, although holding white collar jobs, are at times perceived as symbols of treachery), but it does not seem that Mrs. Joe really cares much for how noble the job is. I found Mrs. Joe’s comment, “Ask no questions and you’ll be told no lies,” really interesting. What kept Pip worried the most was Mrs. Joe’s comment that the people whom murder, steal, and break the law start by first asking questions. Just as Pip mentioned, he asks a lot of questions, and he’s going to start stealing. Therefore, that one personal example has solidified Mrs. Joe’s, otherwise rebutted, comment.
Joe, Mrs. Joe, and Pip are a "family," but because Joe and Pip are both scared of Mrs. Joe, they share a special connection. They are also both seemingly on her crap list, because she speaks down to them and treats them as less than equal. Joe also seems like the kind of guy who is very receptive to love, especially since his wife lacks in that department. This is helpful to Pip, who claims "I loved Joe -- perhaps for no better reason in those early days than because the dear fellow let me love him (42)" Fear and love unite -- Joe and Pip are close because of their fear of Mrs. Joe and their own capabilities to love each other.
Working my way through this novel, I'm seriously at my wits end with Mrs. Joe! She is such a bully! Saying she 'brought pip up by hand' is just her trying to pat herself on her back, thinking that she's done such a wonderful job raising Pip. In all honesty she's just a constant terror. I find the whole idea of her frustrating! I believe the only thing that keeps me from slamming the book down in frustration is Pip and Joe's friendship. Those two boys have each other's backs. Togehter they take the tar-water like champs!Though Joe is much older than Pip, I look at him as Pip's age. Perhaps, Joe is maybe a little inferior to Pip considering mental capacity and all.
Once again I agree with Olivia. The way Mrs. Joe bullies and treats Joe and Pip is really ticking me off! I think Joe is physically strong, but he's weak in the sense that he won't stand up for himself. He lets Mrs. Joe push both him and Pip around. I think Joe's and Pip's relationship is based on the fact that they can rely on the other and they can relate with what they are enduring from Mrs. Joe. They're both being bullied by her. I think Mrs. Joe just enjoys complaining about how she was left to raise Pip, and she didn't want to do that.
I agree with what most people have said, that Joe is a strong man physically but lacks the strength to take action to better his life(as in standing up for himself and not allowing his wife to treat him like a dog). Pip being so much younger than his sister probably has a feeling of detachment from her, causing him to only call her Mrs. Joe. Especially because of how he is treated by her, he really doesn't have a bond like siblings should, leaving them to be distant. Obviously with both Pip and Joe being under Mrs. Joe's crazy lady tyranny, they find solace in each other, and are able to rely on one another to deal with Mrs. Joe. Joe and Pip are more like siblings than anything else, and behave as though they are both young. Mrs. Joe just doesn't seem like a happy person, and really just chooses to gripe about everything. Maybe being married to a blacksmith wasn't and still isn't what Mrs. Joe truly wants. Maybe she has an ideal life that she wanted as a child but ended up settling, and now she has resentment against both Joe and Pip. Seeing as how Pip was stealing from Joe and Mrs. Joe that night, he is most worried about being caught. Fearing the repercussions of Mrs. Joe's anger and afraid that Joe will be disappointed in Pip.
I agree with the statements implying that Mrs. Joe is a bully, but I believe her character is a necessity to the novel. In the beginning of the novel, you are introduced to such dramatic tension. This implies that Pip has lived a life of loneliness and tragedies. Mrs. Joe lifts the mood displaying Dicken's humor and reveals that Pip does in fact have a safe place he can call home. Mrs. Joe's constant nit-picking allows a bond to form between Pip and Joe. They have both grow weary of her complaining. In the quote: "a Hercules in strength, and also in weakness," it is apparent that Joe is physically strong but emotionally weak. However, Joe was not always weak. There is a sense that because of Mrs. Joe Joe's emotional strength has wearied down.
The way Mrs. Joe treats Pip and Joe is probably the reason they are so close, and is also the reason Pip calls her Mrs. Joe. She treats Pip in a manner that is definitely not sisterly or even sufficient as a guardian. Pip does not truly look at her as a sister (I even forget that they are so closely related while reading), which is probably why he refers to her as Mrs. Joe instead of her name. When Mrs. Joe is in one of her rages, she treats Joe as if he is as much a child as Pip is. They both have to be on the lookout for her temper, and both have to endure it at its worst. Even though their situation is very unfortunate, it has brought them together in a very nice way.
Joe and Pip are so close because they are both victims of Mrs. Joe. Pip often says in the book that he thinks of Joe as his equal. They both don't stand up to her, but find comfort in one another. I also feel like Pip is like a son to Joe. Joe did happen to be the one that wanted to take in Pip in the first place, even though Mrs. Joe is his sister, and in most situations family would want to take care of family. Mrs. Joe constantly complains of what a burden Pip is, and how ungrateful he is, which drives Pip closer to Joe.
(This is my fourth time posting this so I hope they don't all show up tommorow and I look like an idiot ;) ) Pip and Joe are so close because they are both victims of Mrs. Joe's harsh personality. Pip even says that he sees Joe as his equal. This is probably because Mrs. Joe treats her husband the same way she treats Pip, and treats Joe as if he is a child. Because of her ways, it has brought both Pip and Joe together. It was even Joe who insisted that Mrs. Joe and him take in Pip when he became in orphan, even though Mrs. Joe is Pip's sister. In most situations, it would be the family who would want to take care of their own family, but Mrs. Joe is definately selfish and hypocritical.
Joe is aptly described as a "Hercules in strenght, and also in weakness." Hercules was a partially immortal demigod, he was stronger and bigger that mortal men. Joe must be exceptionally storng, strong as Hercules is, because of the sheer physical strenght needed for a blacksmith. However, Joe is not only physically strong, but strong because of the strenght of his compassion for Pip. Even early on we see that Joe cares for Pip, warning him about Mrs. Joe's wrath, and getting inbetween her and Pip. Joe also is exceptionally weak, more so than most men, as he cannot stand up to his wife. Joe had tar water poored down his throat for no apparent reason, and was not able to stop it. Mrs. Joe treats Joe like a child, even giving him the same amount of bread she gives Pip.
I think Joe's a wuss and yeah, he has some strengths like he's friends with Pip, but Pip's a child. He's not parenting Pip, he's being friends with him! They always have each other's back when they are putting up with Mrs. Joe, which is good, but I think that Joe should be able to stand up against his wife. She is selfish and inconsiderate. I'm hoping to find out later that there is some reason that she became like this, so I can explain her and her actions. I really like to think that there is a reason that people are the way they are, even if they are just characters in a book. Mrs. Joe says she's raising him "by hand", but she needs to be backhanded. That's how I feel about her. She is mean, isn't really nurturing him, and isn't being that motherly, she's just providing for him.
I like the relationship Pip and Joe have. They both kind of need each other for support in a tough household. Pip and Joe have similar personalities but Pip is a bit more rebellious and sneaky. That is where Pip gets his freedom while Joe seems to get his freedom in the forge. In the first part when Pip is supposed to be getting supplies for the convict Pip seems to be more concerned about the fact that he has to steal and the consequences of that then the fact that he is getting supplies for an escaped convict. I think this shows that Pip does not judge people harshly and just takes everyone for a person. At this point he hasn't given much though to status and i think the adults around him notice this ignorance. They seem to berate him for not treating his sister as the adult leader she is. He is very confused about this because he doesn't understand the meaning of levels in his home and in the world around him. Mrs. Joe i think also has a problem with status. She complains about Joe who is a respectable blacksmith and pushes him around quite a bit for being the man he is. I think she is jelous that he can attain such a rank and she cant, maybe because she is a woman. i think she has dreams about being a leader in society but the time doesn't approve that and she knows it. So she takes it out on Joe and Pip.
When I started this novel, I felt so bad for Joe! Mrs. Joe seems to be a nightmare, but as Grace said, the novel unfolds and you find her character necessary. She gives Pip a home and a mother-figure, and her stern personality allows for Joe and Pip's friendship to take off. Joe is described as "a Hercules in strength, and also in weakness," meaning that his career as a blacksmith gives him physical strength, but his mentality hinders him and causes his weakness. Joe may have a physically challenging career, but his strong bond with young Pip left me feeling that Joe isn't as mentally advanced as physically. Joe also lacks the will to stand up to his wife Mrs. Joe, which leads to the strong bond between Pip and Joe. Both form their friendship by taking refuge from Mrs. Joe, who constantly undermines both. I like Joe and Pip's friendship because they look out for each other, but it is unusual for Joe to be so close with Pip.
Ah, Joe; the classic case of a hulking monster of a man controlled menacingly by a woman of quite little physical prowess. To me this mirrors Hercules's weakness of love to a mere mortal woman. It appears as though Mrs. Joe is doing nothing other than proclaiming her self-appointed superiority over Joe. This makes Joe weak not only because of being manipulated easily, but also his lack of proper education for a man his age. In addition to his own opression, Pip suffers under Mrs. Joe's "hand" as well. This shared punishment gives the two a sense of comerader, and brings them closer to one another.
You would think that Pip and his sister would be close, with the deaths of their parents and siblings. However, it could not be any more opposite; their relationship is rocky at best and Pip must endure frequent belittling. This could be the reason why Mrs. Joe is so sour and is constantly complaining. So much tragedy has fallen on their family that it seems as though some greater power is punishing them. Mrs. Joe has had to live without parental figures, as well as take care of Pip that she cannot help but be bitter. Therefore, although Joe’s job as a blacksmith is respectable, Mrs. Joe cannot help but wonder why after all the terrible times she had to endure, she could not have married a wealthy, prominent man and had a bit of good fortune. Because of this bitterness, Mrs. Joe treats Pip and Joe a bit cruelly, which stimulates the relationship between Joe and Pip. Pip sees Joe as someone is the same position as himself, regardless of the age difference. I think describing Joe as “a Hercules in strength, and also in weakness” is proper. Joe is considered as a strong man, his job requires that of him. However, like Hercules, Joe is still a child at heart, no matter is physical strength.
To be completely honest, i started this book late. Like, way late. Unfortunately i decided to start my summer with a "one-week break" and it took me a bit longer to get going then i first intended. but after a full day of reading im set to start my comments. Better late than never huh! Alright, i really did not want to read this book, it didn't seem interesting at all, but i have been extremely surprised by it. Starting with the first page, the amount of character description was astounding. You can figure out a variety of Pips traits just by his description of his name. This sense of description continues when showing the setting and characters Pip is forced to live with. The household shows the strong Joe Gargery, a man with physical strength but a lack of self-respect puts him on a pedestal ripe to be torn down by his wife: Mrs. Joe. The first two chapters set up the story well by giving a solid set of characters to build off of, allowing the author to let strong events unravel later on. And sorry this comment isn't so solid, i wrote a huge one and it all got deleted. Im still frustrated a bit =/
With Mrs. Joe, i feel like good is never quite good enough. She wants everything that she doesn't have,and instead of settling for an acceptable lifestyle, she would rather have the extravagence seen in the lives of wealthier people around her. She also loves playing the victim for attention when it comes to her own life. Her complaints stem from the attention she gets from them, and she creates a version of herself that in her eyes, is nothing less that a martyr. She would rather complain about Joe and paint him as an idiot in her mind than be happy with his modest job. Why she is the way she is remains untold, but one can assume that it possibly could be the result of pyschological damage after her parents and siblings death.
I don't like how Dickens uses ' instead of ", I feel like half of a word is missing in front of the apostrophe. Why is the book formatted this way, and how could it be published like that? Is this grammatically correct, I'm questioning everything i know about English. if anything this book is making me less informed. What is wittles? Is wittles food? I have no idea what wittles is. You can use wittles to wittle, but he asked for a file and never got a wittle so where and what is wittle? I’ve also never heard the phrase "raise by hand." Not that any of this is complaining, just some things I thought were interesting. I’m glad the book started right away, the criminal showed up in the first few pages.
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