(Photo Credit: http://fundapk.com)
What a bizarre way for Valencia to go. Since we know that writers can dispose of characters in any way they wish, why do you think Vonnegut chose this circuitous route to Valencia's demise?
Love the Roosevelt quote...
Why is Rumfoord brought into the story? What does he do to move the plot along?
Why doesn't Rumfoord believe Billy was in Dresden initially?
Billy and the Americans were looting Dresden...does this change your opinion of Billy?
What does it say about Billy that the only thing he cries about during the entire war is the condition of the horses?
Why does the Rumfoord section end after Billy mentions the Tralfamadorians?
Billy realizes that he has read The Big Board before. This novel kind of mirrors his own experiences on Tralfamador. What does this fact suggest?
What is significant about the Jesus story?
Why does Vonnegut choose to put Billy in an adult bookstore? What do we learn about Billy based on his reactions there?
So we see the serenity prayer again, this time on Montana's necklace...what does this suggest about the earlier encounter with the prayer?
37 comments:
I believe that Rumfoord was brought into the story to again question the sanity/reliablity of Billy Pilgrim. Rumfoord questioned why the doctors let him live any longer. He thinks that Billy is no longer a human being. He even diagnoses Billy with echolalia, a disease that makes a person repeat things that people around them say. Although, " Billy was having an adventure very common among people without power in time of war: He was trying to prove to a willfully deaf and blind enemy that he was interesting to hear and see"(193). Billy later explains to Rumfoord that he was in Dresden when it was bombed and Rumfoord eventually believed him.
I think that quote was interesting because it proves Billy's sanity to Rumfoord and that Rumfoord should not have judged Billy as an insane man that should be dead.
I think it is kind of strange that Billy only cried once during the war. I guess part of the reason why he cried then was because he had closed his mind off to the true horror of battle and being a prisoner. Billy saw the horses after he had been freed. Not only that but also it shows how young Billy truly is. People tend to be sympathetic for those who are completely harmless and helpless. While Billy saw many people get injured or die during the war; all of them were there by choice. They may have been pressured by the government, or even threatened, but as a human you know what you are doing and can you can think and decide for yourself. The horses were completely helpless, they were abandoned, alone, and completely clueless to what was really going on. Children are especially sympathetic so when Billy cried I think it showed his true age. This is a reoccurring idea that Vonnegut stresses throughout the novel.
I agree that it is strange that Billy only cried once during the war and for him to only cry for the condition of the horses also strikes me as strange. The impact that the scene of the bombing of Dresden throughout the novel would have led me to believe that that would be the only time that Billy would cry. Possibly it was because the horses were helpless and innocent, but Billy also described the people who lived in Dresden as helpless and innocent. Not everyone in the war died by choice.
Rumfoord does not believe Billy was in Dresden at first because he “considered Billy a repulsive non-person who would be much better off dead” (191). When Rumfoord first meets Billy, he considers Billy to be of no use and better if dead. I find this ironic because it is as if Rumfoord was thinking as if in the war, that an inconvenient person is better if dead. For example, when Billy was in the war he was an inconvenience to the two scouts and was left with Roland Weary for whatever fate war would leave him.
I believe vonnegut put Billy in the adult bookstore to again show how his reactions are much different than most soldiers. In the slaughterhouse, he merely glanced at the women. He did not coo, or call like a typical man who hadn't had intimate relations with a woman in a long time. In fact, when he and Valencia were intimate, it wasn't even a big deal to him. So putting Billy in the bookstore confirms that he isn't a typical soldier back home. He didn't care about the pornography, he just wanted the science-fiction section.
I agree with Shelby and Heather, and I also think it is strange that the only time Billy cried was when he saw the helpless horses. Often in life, people tend to give more sympathy to animals than people. Animals are helpless and cannot defend themselves as humans can. Often in movies and books we see people being killed and don't think anything of it, but when an animal is killed, we tear up. It's that sense of loyalty and companionship that animals give to humans that makes us feel more emotional. I also agree with Shelby on the fact that it shows Billy's true age.
Rumfoord doesn’t believe Billy was in Dresden initially because for so long Billy had been pretty much non-responsive to anything. He would occasionally say things that would mean nothing to anyone. Rumfoord had just assumed that he was sort of a vegetable. Then when Billy finally started talking to him clearly it was hard for Rumfoord to take him seriously.
vonnegut didn't seem to like the character of valencia, based on how he portrayed her and how he had her die. but i think he wanted to be funny, making her so crazed that she got in a bad accident but her desire to get to billy quickly led to her death.
rumfoord forces billy to stay in the real world, to deal with what he saw in dresden out loud, not just in his own mind. and rumfoord is there to show what's it's like from the perspective of someone else, someone who just read about it, who thinks they know it.
i don't really see a problem with the looting here, after all they've been through it's almost excusable, and who's really going to come back to dresden to get their stuff?
i think billy only crying about the horses isn't too much of a stretch. he spends the whole war being the little guy, the one who is made to suffer. then, he actually causes another being to suffer. he feels like he has become like his captors, and so he breaks down.
the big board makes it appear that billy just adopted the book into his own memory, which i doubt is hard for someone with brain damage to do.
the jesus story is significant because it serves as an analogy to the many factory workers who built weapons similar to the ones that would eventually lead to their death.
I think that Billy crying about the horses is not the oddest thing, however I find it strange that after all of the death he has seen that he had not cried about anything else in the war before that moment. During the bombing of Dresden Billy was involved in, all of the innocent people who lived there were killed and he was surrounded by death, but he still did not cry. I can believe that after seeing the condition of the horses, "that the horses' mouths were bleeding, gashed by the bits, that the horses' hooves were broken, so that every step meant agony, that the horses were insane with thirst" (pg. 196), I understand why he is upset. But I guess what I do not understand is why that moment? After everything else that has happened, that scene struck Billy differently?
Rumfoord doesn’t believe that Billy was in Dresden because he had been so un-responsive to everything to begin with. He would say un-relatable comments that would serve no purpose, so Rumfoord just figured that he was un-active and wasn’t going to do anything. When they finally started to converse it was hard for them to get close or to believe each other.
Vonnegut puts Billy in an adult bookstore in order to show how different he reacts to what you might expect. Unlike others who would be in such a place, Billy is actually interested in the science fiction novels rather than the pornography. Its shows that Billy is not like the others. He is more interested in science fiction because that is a main thing that Billy can identify with. Billy was more subjected to science fiction all his life (rather than pornography) and thus finds it easier to relate with.
I think the reason that Billy only cried when he saw the condition of the horses is that he knew they were innocent. I find it odd that Billy didn't cry over the deaths of his comrades but only over the horses however. For example, he knew Edgar Derby's fate and did nothing to stop it, didn't even care. I honestly believe Billy cared more about the horses than how the human race was becoming, therefore showing more empathy towards the horses. It can also be viewed as Billy losing so much faith in humanity he felt the animals had more worth than the humans.
I wish that Kilgore Trout were a real author because I love the irony in these fake stories. I know they are supposed to be satires to supplement the novel, but they would make great real books. They remind me of the Twilight Zone. Anyway, in this chapter, besides the obvious significance of the stories mentioned I wanted to point out the religious elements introduced. It may have been skimmed upon earlier in the book, but in both of these stories, Vonnegut seems to be emphasizing the hypocrisy of religion. For example, in The Big Board, Vonnegut writes that because the captives prayed for the price of Olive Oil to go up it did. It implies that God is more worried about the price of Olive Oil than the other problems going on. Vonnegut is satirizing the mentality of people who believe that God only answers the problems of those who pray. Religion is also criticized in the Jesus story when Vonnegut writes that even Jesus would make a questionable product if it were profitable and/or necessary for survival. Perhaps Vonnegut was insinuating that some things like the war need to happen even though they can be somewhat questionable in moral. Or maybe, in an even simpler explanation, Vonnegut was pointing out that the world is full of hypocrites. Even Jesus could have been a hypocrite. I seem to be rambling just a little bit so I'll stop here. Does anyone else notice the religious factor anywhere else in the book?
I think that the reason Vonnegut chose to put Billy into an adult bookstore was to show that he isn't a typical male. The typical male soldier in the war would have been all over everything in that store. To Billy, the store meant nothing. The only thing in the store that he was truly interested in was a book written by Kilgore Trout. It was a great characterization of Billy Pilgrim.
I agree with Allison that it is very strange that Billy only cried once during the war. The impact that the scene of the bombing of Dresden throughout the novel would have led me to believe that that would be the only time that Billy would cry. Billy described the people in Dresden as helpless and innocent just like the horses but it just doesn't make sense that he only cried once the whole entire war...
Vonnegut put Billy in the adult bookstore to show how he is different than the average male. In the store, he is more drawn towards the science fiction books because those are something he is more interested in and can relate to. By viewing the actions of Billy in the bookstore, it allows the author to reveal characteristics of Billy to the reader though his motivations.
I believe that earlier in the story the prayer was long after Billy had seen the prayer on Montana's necklace. This prayer could make it seem as though his whole time traveling and kidnapping were true making the reader believe that everything in the novel is true.
The only tears shed by Billy during the war were because of horses? This poses the mental state of Billy during the war. Supressing everything in led to an overwhelming feeling in the end and Billy let it out when he was mentally exhausted. The victory of his happy moment sleeping leads to his first tears wept, showing how much things that bring us joy, bring others to hate.
The Big Board suggests that Billy's imagining everything and got all of his ideas from fictional works. They provide supoort that the plane crash caused him more suffering than just a head condition.
Billy only talks to Rumfoord after he mentions Dresden. He became silent when any doctors or staff are in the room, but will talk to Rumfoord more as well. Is Billy brought to a realty when he can talk about things he relates to, like the war. He does not listen when Rumfoord says horrible things about him, but replys genuinely about Dresden. They stop talking, and Billy time travels again.
I feel like Kilgore Trout could be Billy in another life: a crotchety old author who is virtually unheard of in the literary world. He loves what he does (maybe) but is alone at the end of the day, and many would label him a "failure." If Billy would not have been thrown into the war, kidnapped by aliens, quietly ushered into an optometry career, and married, who knows where he would have ended up? Something just tells me that these two have more parallels than Vonnegut is letting on to.
It doesn't strike me as odd that the the only time Billy cried during the war was because of the condition of the horses. He had a happy moment before he discovered the horses - the first happy moment that he's had in a long time. Then, it's ruined by another hopeless situation. Maybe Billy thought that it was finally all over, that all the suffering was done because everyone was dead. Or maybe all his emotions built up to that moment and it was time for him to openly show them.
I think that the only reason Billy cried for the horses and nothing else that happened in the war is because that was something that he did. He didn’t kill anyone or hurt anyone, but he did harm those horses. I think it also shows how young Billy was and how he felt sorry for the horses like a child would.
Based on how Vonnegut portrayed Valencia, I don’t think he really liked her. I think he wanted her to die in that manner to show how crazy she was acting. Yes, Billy had the possibility of dying, but I think Valencia was taking things a little overboard when driving to the hospital. It obviously didn’t help her to act so obnoxiously, and I think Vonnegut may have wanted it to be comical.
I also found it very strange that the only time Billy cried during the war was when he saw the condition of the horses. I think that after Billy had the chance to lay down in the wagon and rest, he was able to snap back into reality. After blocking off all emotions in order to get through war, he finally realizes the horrible impact of the war.
I think the serenity prayer means a lot in this novel. I especially like the way it is portrayed at the end of chapter nine on Montana's necklace. I think the part, "grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change" relates to Billy in a big way. He knows things are going to happen whether he feels its the right thing or not but he has the acceptance because he knows there is nothing that he can do to change those things. I feel as if he keeps this in mind throughout his time in the war.
I find it hard to believe that out of all the things he saw in the war, only one thing actually made him cry. He saw many horrible things in the war, including countless dead bodies, but he never shed a tear for them. However, when the German couple pointed out what poor condition the horses were in and made Billy look for himself, he was flooded with uncontrollable emotion. The only explanation that I can come up with is that he realized how truly innocent the horses were. They were not there by choice. Someone forced them to work and then left them there helplessly chained to a wagon. It is arguable that he saw other “innocent” people during the war, but I believe that Billy thought none of them were innocent. Unlike the horses, even the men that did not want to be there had a choice. They could have refused to serve in the war and faced punishment with a brave face. The common excuse “I didn’t have a choice,” is faulty. I think that everyone always has a choice even if they don’t realize it, and many people don’t consider not making a choice to be a choice as a choice. However, that still leaves one question unanswered. If Billy does not believe in freewill, how can he believe in making choices?
Almost the entire novel we hve never seen Billy show any type of emotion. Not even what hes been through in the war. He's had to see numerous dead and cold bodies. Why is it the conditions of the horses that makes Billy cry?
I think maybe he's had all these emotions just going around inside of him that he just accidently let them slip. After a momeny Billy came back to jis normal self.
Billy Pilgrim is a naive soldier who entered the war as a young man and left the war without learning much of anything. I think it's interesting that Billy cries over the horses rather than the bombing of Dresden, the horrible conditions, or the constant death of his comrades surrounding him. That Billy cried over animals makes me think of small children. In my mind, small children are the ones that most often cry over the death of animals and this portrays innocence and naivety in Billy's character. I do not think that the war served to mature Billy as a person or heighten his character, and that he cried over horses rather than tragic events merely serves to emphasize this point.
I feel like the scene with Billy and the horses really brings out the true emotions that Billy has. It is interesting and surprising that the only thing that Billy cries about during the entire war is the condition of the horses. This might tell the reader that Billy is an animal person and he feels ashamed and sad that he didn’t recognize the poor horses before the couple pointed it out. I personally think that Billy has so much built up emotion from everything that he has been through during the war that the couple harassing him about the horrible state of the horses was the last straw and he just broke down. The tears that Billy cried then were not just for the horses, but for the whole war and his experiences.
The way Valencia died was definitely unexpected. It was also very ironic and really sad. Valencia was in a car crash not long before and emerged from it unscathed, but she ended up inadvertently killing herself with carbon monoxide poisoning because of her panicked state. Even more ironically, she died while desperately trying to reach Billy before he died. Perhaps that irony is the reason Vonnegut chose this route for her demise. Whatever the case, it’s unfortunate that she didn’t even get to see her husband one last time before her death. So it goes...
The Roosevelt quote made me laugh. Brilliant!
The looting by the Americans and Billy in Dresden does not change my opinion of Billy. He was just a scared boy that shouldnt have been in the war and was trying to survive. Rumfoord didnt believe Billy was in Dresden because he was convinced Billy had Echolalia and that Billy didnt actually mean what he was saying.
I don’t want to sound creepy, but I actually like how Valencia dies. I was expecting her to die in the car accident, which has happened in so many books. It’s quite strange to have someone go through a car accident and survive, drive to the hospital and then, and only then, pass out from carbon monoxide poisoning. What a way to go! It makes me chuckle.
Billy having read The Big Board suggests that he imagined his time on Tralfamador. He dreamed a lot of things after the plane crash most of them were not true, his abduction and life on Tralfamador could have been structured on the plot of the book and his mind just accepted them as true. He doesn't remember the title of the book and that suggests that he forgot about reading it until he read it again.
Rumfoord didnt believe that Billy was in Dresden originally because, they were in a mental institute and Billy seemed to be a little mentally unstable. Billy was also mumbling in his coma, which was probably a bit unsettling. Rumfoord believes that Billy has just been repeating what he overheard.
Throughout the entire novel, Billy has been distant and detached. He comes from a country that seems to glorify war, thus making him oblivious to the depravity that is happening around him. Billy cries about the horses, showing that he is less concerned about the death of people, and more concerned about the way that innocent animals are treated. The animals were not the ones that started the war, humans did. Billy may feel that the animals do not deserve to die for the foolish actions of man.
Rumfoord doesn't believe Billy because he feels that Billy isn't a real person. I think Rumfoord is right about thinking that Billy isn't a real person. The war has destroyed Billy mentally to the point that he really isn't a real human being anymore.
I think part of the reason Billy cries about the horses is because he doesn't have much faith in humanity, and the way the animals were treated just reflects what he already feels. The horses were part of something that didn't concern them. They aren't human and don't have a need to fight in wars, but they were used and abused because of human emotions. People steal, cheat, lie, fight, and corrupt. Horses are just horses.
I think Billy can also sort of identify with the horses, along with the rest of the men that were fighting a war that wouldn't directly have made a difference in their lives otherwise. The soldiers were told to fight, so they did. The horses were told to carry, so they did. The condition of the horses could be a reminder to Billy of his own condition.
Post a Comment