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What a bizarre way for
Valencia to go. Since we know that writers can dispose of characters in any way
they wish, why do you think Vonnegut chose this circuitous route to Valencia's
demise?
Love the Roosevelt quote...
Why is Rumfoord brought into the story? What does he do to move the plot along?
Why doesn't Rumfoord believe Billy was in Dresden initially?
Billy and the Americans were looting Dresden...does this change your opinion of Billy?
What does it say about Billy that the only thing he cries about during the entire war is the condition of the horses?
Why does the Rumfoord section end after Billy mentions the Tralfamadorians?
Billy realizes that he has read The Big Board before. This novel kind of mirrors his own experiences on Tralfamador. What does this fact suggest?
What is significant about the Jesus story?
Why does Vonnegut choose to put Billy in an adult bookstore? What do we learn about Billy based on his reactions there?
So we see the serenity prayer again, this time on Montana's necklace...what does this suggest about the earlier encounter with the prayer?
Love the Roosevelt quote...
Why is Rumfoord brought into the story? What does he do to move the plot along?
Why doesn't Rumfoord believe Billy was in Dresden initially?
Billy and the Americans were looting Dresden...does this change your opinion of Billy?
What does it say about Billy that the only thing he cries about during the entire war is the condition of the horses?
Why does the Rumfoord section end after Billy mentions the Tralfamadorians?
Billy realizes that he has read The Big Board before. This novel kind of mirrors his own experiences on Tralfamador. What does this fact suggest?
What is significant about the Jesus story?
Why does Vonnegut choose to put Billy in an adult bookstore? What do we learn about Billy based on his reactions there?
So we see the serenity prayer again, this time on Montana's necklace...what does this suggest about the earlier encounter with the prayer?
75 comments:
Rumfoord is one of the weirder characters introduced in this story. He seems to represent some sort of war hero but also egoistic in many cases thinking himself to be above others. In some ways, Rumfoord is above others because of his being in the war, and then there is the fact that Rumfoord has more money than a lot of others. When having to sit in a random hospital next to a delusional man who was injured in a plane crash, I wouldn't believe the other man at first either. Rumfoord claims Billy has echolalia, but the doctor's find that this is truly not the case. Later at night Billy then tells Rumfoord he had been there in Dresden, and this segment ends on the Tralfamadorians to emphasize that there was no true mention of the species until after the plane had crashed and Billy had been injured. That fact alongside the reading of The Big Board hold the tipping points in the debate on whether Billy was delusional or speaking the truth.
I think Vonnegut killed Valencia like that because it was misleading, and ironic. Earlier in the book he tells us that Valencia dies from carbon monoxide poisoning after Billy was in the crash, and I jumped to the conclusion that she had killed herself. In this chapter he reveals that she wasn’t severely depressed, but instead, loved her husband so much that she wouldn’t stop until she found out if her was okay or not. The irony is that she was completely happy with her marriage and life, yet she died in a way that is most commonly associated with suicide. I think Vonnegut also wanted to show the differences between Billy and Valencia. She died in an accident because she was overcome with emotions for her injured husband, but Billy almost didn’t have a reaction to his wife’s death.
Billy saw many unthinkable things throughout the war, but the only thing he ever cried about was the condition of the horses. I think Billy only cried about the horses because that was the only time Billy saw pain and torture that he had attributed to during the war. Despite the brutal destruction of Dresden, Billy did not cry because he was not responsible for the pain and destruction. Also, I think the horses bleeding mouths, broken hooves, and extreme thirst reminded Billy of his march with the Germans after he was captured. Weary had been forced to wear horrible shoes that did not fit and ultimately led to his death. When the prisoners of war were fed little and given minimal water while traveling on the train. Billy was overcome with emotions when he realized how horribly he had treated the horses because Billy did not want to be responsible for such maltreatment. Billy had been happy lying in the carriage while the horses suffered and felt terrible for enjoying himself while other living creatures suffered.
The Big Board seemed pretty much just like Billy’s experience on Tralfamador with Montana. The fact that he read it during his time in the mental institute told me that he was just using that story as his own story. Billy honestly thought he was abducted and such but he wasn’t. When Billy was in his comma he dreamt of that story and experienced it through himself, he thought the dream was time travel. When Billy awoke he thought that he should tell everyone about his experience, but why would he tell everyone right after the comma? Because he had only experienced this dream during it. Billy only pays attention to The Big Board and other Kilgore Trout books in the adult book store. This tells us that Billy doesn’t seem to care about the stuff in there, he cares about the only non sexual book in the store.
Billy looting Dresden with the other Americans did not change my opinion of him. Billy was a soldier who had nothing. He was still wearing his Cinderella boots. The people of Dresden were dead and didn't have a use for the material things they had left behind. If Billy had been a well equipped soldier not in need of supplies then I would have thought less of him for looting. But overall I believe Billy to be a good person who constantly is thrown into not so nice circumstances.
As far as Valencia's death goes, I expected a little more of a reaction from Billy. I found it odd that Valencia was racing to make sure that Billy was okay, but Billy felt little to no emotions about Valencia's passing. Rumfoord doesn't believe that Billy witnessed the bombing of Dresden because of how numb he seems. Billy gives Rumfoord the impression that he is dull and has quit on life. "He bores the hell out of me!" Rumfoord says, (184). Rumfoord also claims that Billy is not a human being anymore because he lacks reaction and emotion.
I think that Valencia being killed by carbon monoxide poisoning while racing to see Billy was used to show us how much she really loved him. Even though she was unaware that she was going to die, it portrays that she was willing to give her life for Billy. It was sad to see the lack of emotions Billy had about the passing of his wife. You would think he would be more upset that she died, or even feel guilty that she died while going to make sure Billy was okay. This is fitting for Billy's personality though. We all know that Billy isn't bothered by death. He believes that it's no different than any other part of life because he still sees the person in his "time travel." Billy's "so it goes" lifestyle just seems so depressing.
Perhaps Rumfoord is introduced into the story because he adds to the mystery of Billy’s time travel. Rumfoord talks about how Billy only talks about surrendering and and asks to be left alone. During the war Billy asked Weary and the scouts alone. So maybe Billy does not time travel, but instead dreams of past events and thinks it is time travel. Rumfoord has a hard time believing that Billy was at Dresden because he thinks Billy is brain dead. Also Rumfoord thinks Billy is crazy because he talks in his sleep.
I agree with a lot of the posts above about how Valencia was killed but there wasn't much of a reaction from Billy while Valencia was so overcome with grief because she loved him so much that she was willing to take her life to be with him. I think that the reason Billy didn't have much of a reaction to Valencia's death was because of the injuries to his brain. He has already seen to much death for his lifetime that it just becomes a part of his life and nature that he just moves on. I don't think he really comprehends that she is gone or he just knows that she is okay and they will meet again someday.
I found Valencia’s death to be very interesting. She was just trying to get to her husband in the hospital as fast as she could, and she ended up killing herself on accident. It’s really sad actually; she loved him so much and didn’t think twice about the damage to her car or her safety getting there. When Billy cried about the condition of the horses, I felt very bad for him. This is the only thing he cried about during the war and I think it’s because he was simply numb to everything else. He couldn’t let himself cry or get upset because if he did that, everything would make him upset. He had to put on a façade for himself. I think everything caught up to him when he saw the horses because this was finally the end of the war. My opinion of them looting Dresden didn’t really change because they were in the war for so long, and Dresden was basically just a pile of ruins, so that part didn’t really bother me.
The significance of the story regarding Jesus was to demonstrate the similarities between Jesus and Billy. In the story, Jesus is a bum that people don't take the time to notice or view as irrelevant, and he is later to be adopted by God. Billy is similar to Jesus in this story because he is continuously perceived as weak or inadequate so they chose to dismiss his presence. Both Jesus and Billy are both trying to preach and share the valuable information they have secured to others,and people are giving them hate because they are afraid of the unknown. Just because they don't meet people's standards, doesn't mean they deserve to be belittled or robbed of their life.
I believe the reason for Billy crying over the condition of the horses was because it had been destruction to something that couldn't fight back. In Dresden people were able to fight back and Billy didn't specifically contribute to that destruction. Where he did contribute to the pain and torture of the horses. I also agree with numerous posts previously posted. I believe that Valencia's death is rather curious. She was racing to see a man that she had loved for so long with all her heart. While Billy had little reaction to her death, this shows the reader the relationship between them. His wife loved to much and Billy not enough.
I found it very interesting how Billy remembers he read the novel, The Big Board and mentions how it mirrors his experience on Tralfamador. This makes me wonder if all his stories stem from this one novel. I believe the author put this part in the novel on purpose. Billy might remember this story but not remember reading it so he believes it actually happened to him. He remembers the story as if it happened to him so he starts to believe it. I don't think many people think of the same exact alien story so I believe Billy thinks he actually lived those experiences instead of reading them. The author showing this experience in the book store gives more reason for the reader to question Billy's truthfulness of the stories.
For me chapter nine was the most emotional. First off the death of Valencia was both unexpected and sudden. The fact that she died racing to get to the hospital to see her injured husband was one of the most terribly romantic things I have ever read. If I had been Billy I would have been completely devastated with the news, which really surprised me when he had hardly no reaction at all. Valencia loved Billy with all her heart which was shown through her perseverance to get to the hospital knowing the carbon monoxide would kill her . But where there is love there is hate and immediately I hated Rumfoord. He is the stereotypical rich snob who is so much better than anyone else. Through out the chapter he made comments about how Billy has mental disabilities and how no one should listen to Billy because he was crazy.It ground my gears that Rumfoord had the audacity to talk trash about Billy and call him a liar when Billy told him his stories about Dresden, when he didn't know anything about Billy other than what Billy would mumble in his sleep. I find Rumfoord to be as despicable of a person as I found trout to be because neither of them had any kind of sympathy for others.
I might be one of the only one who thinks Valencia's death isn't very surprising. Yes, it's incredibly unfortunate and pretty weird to die in such a way. Obviously she adored Billy and was so consumed with grief, but it's kind of her own fault. Love makes you do stupid things, but continuing to drive was definitely not the best option. Anyway, Billy even previously mentions that he wasn't head-over-heels for Valencia. Her dad had given Billy nice opportunities and she was basically just "good enough" for him. Not that he didn't care for her, after all they were married for a number of years without any trouble, but his lack of reaction was expected. Not even because death doesn't really phase him.
When Billy cries about the horses it shows that he maybe isn't as detached as we were led to believe. Also, I agree with what Paige said. The horses reminded him of how others treated him when he was a prisoner, and how awful it was. He didn't want to be responsible for causing that kind of harm to another living thing. That happens a lot in real life too. Some people just don’t cry. Bad things happen, and they’re told that it’s okay to grieve, but they don’t really cry. Then one day something a little bit sad happens and something breaks inside them. That’s probably what happened to Billy.
The fact that Billy has read The Big Board before and that it resembles his experiences on Tralfamadore take credibility out of his story. It suggests that all of these stories he'd been telling were spliced together from various Kilgore Trout novels he had read over the years. His head trauma from the plane crash could have spurred him using these memories to come up with his abduction tale. I don't think less of Billy for taking things from Dresden. He's gathering souvenirs and treasures from his time in the war. I would think that many soldiers kept treasures and things they found on the battlefields. Granted, Billy's are more looting than prizes won in war, but i still do not change my opinion of his character.
Rumfoord doesn't initially believe that Billy was in Dresden because he doesn't want to. He doesn't particularly like Billy to begin with and often stated that Billy should be dead. So when Billy finally decided to let the world know he really was still alive, Rumfoord couldn't believe it. Plus, Rumfoord had been going on how the Dresden bombing was necessary, so upon finding out he was rooming with a survivor, he didn't know what to say. That is also why he automatically says that Billy has echolalia. Rumfoord had been researching war, but knowing someone who experienced the horrifics was a harder truth to face than just written words.
On a different note, I too almost cried when I read about the condition of the horses. After all, I am an equestrian so reading that was a little heart wrenching. It seems that the situation for Billy is similar to what we sometimes experience watching movies, no one cries for the fallen man but the second a dog is killed the waterworks start. More so though, I feel that it was a little reality check for Billy. He had become so accustom to the pain and destruction of war that upon seeing something completely defenseless, innocent, and outside of war in that condition, he was given an emotional wound that went deep. It amazes me that humans have no problem hurting each other, but that everyone has a problem with hurting the animals. (Although I'm quite happy that no one wants to hurt them!) Anybody ever watch War Horse? All of this reminds me of it; it's a great movie whether you're a horse person or not.
It's sad how Valencia dies, Billy's whole life is sad. She rushes to see her husband after hes one of two survivors in a horrific plane crash, then she herself dies upon arrival. Its just another sad event in Billy's sad life. So it goes? I can't blame Rumfoord for not initially believing Billy's story that he was in Dresden when it was bombed, he never spoke of it until Rumfoord did and he seemed mentally really messed up from the start. It's ironic Billy cries out over the horses, and nothing else the whole period he's in the war. He's surrounded by senseless murder and has seen things no one ever should have to see, he's just mentally and emotionally too far gone at that point.
The serenity prayer on Montana's necklace only leads me to believe that Billy's encounter with her, Tralfamador, and time travel itself really is all in his head. He see's the prayer on her necklace because it was on the plaque in his office. Kind of like how the whole idea he's even there he got from one of Trout's books. Billy just kind of goes with things, doesn't notice much, by Vonnegut putting him in the adult book store it just demonstrated Billy's kind of clueless side. I didn't think Billy and the other American soldiers were doing much harm looting in Dresden, the place was in ruins and I thought they were just salvaging what they could, if they didn't find things in the rubble and take them then they would have just stayed there in the rubble.
I think the fact that Billy realized he had read "The Big Board" before tell a lot. The story seemed like it really mimicked his own experiences. He also mentioned something about a time traveler in Trout's book. Trout seems to really talk about things that relate to Billy's life. Before I thought this was why Billy liked Trout so much, because he related to his stories. But now it seems like maybe when Billy was sick, he dreamed of himself in these crazy stories that he had already read. It now makes sense why Billy's daughter wanted to kill Trout. She knew that he was the reason for Billy's madness. Billy thinks these stories are real and that they happened to him. He doesn't realize that it is only a story written by someone else.
Rumfoord is brought into the story because he spurs the plot as an outside perspective on Billy and his mental state. He also gives his opinion very openly and he is quite blunt. Rumfoord doesn't believe that Billy was in Dresden initially because after Billy's brain operation, he didn't say much to anyone. Everyone at the hospital in Vermont thinks that Billy has turned into a vegetable and that he has no known cognitive ability. When Billy first speaks to Rumfoord, he doesn't believe that he is well and he attributes this speaking to something that he calls "echolalia," where the affected can only repeat things that people around them are saying, but they can't think on their own. Rumfoord convinces himself for a while that Billy is still a vegetable and incapable of putting together coherent thoughts. Rumfoord's perspective is also pertinent because he looks down on Billy and makes it openly admitted, unlike most others who just think that he is crazy. He brings a new vigor to the novel.
The fact that Vonnegut disposed of Valencia Pilgrim by utilizing a car accident and Carbon Monoxide poisoning shows how creative he really can be as an author. It also leads the reader to believe that he never really “liked” her as a character; he merely needed someone to serve as Billy’s companion on Earth. In all actuality, Vonnegut’s despising of Valencia is traceable back to before their marriage. For example, just after their engagement was made official, reality hit Billy smack in the head like a brick, throwing him into a panic attack. In doing this, I feel like Vonnegut was trying to show the reader how he felt when he first realized what kind of character he had created in Valencia Merble, because in reality, her role in the novel was miniscule up until her crash in the Cadillac, which eventually led to her prolonged death.
From seeing how Vonnegut has brought this novel out as a whole, seeing Valencia go out that way did not surprise me at all. It was a bit extreme and it showed how much love Valencia had for Billy. But again, Billy doesn't seem to care as much for her as she does for him. Billy was also suffering from a head injury at the time so he had no idea what was going on or that his wife was dead. Billy was a vegetable. Vonnegut never fails to write something to mess with your head. So it goes...
Vonnegut threw a real good curve ball when it came to Valencia's death. Carbon Monoxide poisoning? she probably killed herself. NOPE, She lived for her husband and wouldn't end her life because she wanted to live for him. And once it was found out that he was only injured she raced to the hospital and died along the way from carbon monoxide poisoning. Personally I think dying from carbon monoxide poisoning while driving is easily avoidable and a relatively stupid way to die. Like I talked about in the Chapter 6 blog post section. There is honor in death sometimes. But he was injured and currently alive, sure she didn't know if he was going to die or not and the rush to get there was understandable. But he wasn't going anywhere and she had time. I'm a little bothered about how Vonnegut foreshadowed for the reader to think it was suicide. I feel like I was tricked so easily.
Initially Rumfoord did not believe Billy because Rumfoord thought Billy to be some crazy loon of a guy and have some sort disease where you repeat what you hear from others around you. why would Billy looting Dresden have any effect on my opinion of Billy? No, absolutely not that guy has been through a lot in his life and after finally being free if he would be happier to go and collect a couple of souvenirs from a town demolished by bombs why shouldn't he? That man survived being a captured solider during WWII he deserves what ever he wants. Billy crying about the horses was just weird and probably because of his mental status at that point. Although Billy might have been truly upset about the horses if he realized that something so important such as his transportation he did not take better care of. After the adult book store I think we realize that Billy does not care about all that stuff and he just cares about his science fiction writer.
I believe that Vonnegut foreshadowing that is was going to be suicide because Valencia believed she was nothing without Billy, she lived for him. I think her dying on her way racing to see him shows how much she really cared for him. I was extremely bothered yet not entirely surprised by Billy's lack of emotion over her death. She cared for him so much, and he didn't so much as blink at her passing. I didn't expect much more though, because as Delaney said previously, Billy does not even act as a human being anymore. He doesn't react and he doesn't have feelings. He doesn't speak much, and he has just become somewhat of a vegetable.
I feel instead of the Jesus story relating Jesus and Billy, it's the time-traveler and Billy. So, the time-traveler wants to confirm the stories, that Jesus was dead when on the cross, and then later came back from the dead. In the end, the traveler realizes the stories were true, and the only information he could bring back with him is that Jesus stood five feet and three and a half inches. Billy, in my opinion, has tried to do the same, just in different context. Billy has tried to prove that life exists other than just on Earth, but I'm sure neither story has passed the social acceptance test. Neither "time-traveler" had actually made a difference from their journeys.
I think that Billy crying at the condition of the horses is strange, but I can almost understand it. The horses are innocent creatures that Billy and his friends have nearly rode to death, and using what we already know about Billy, we can probably infer that he hasn't hurt anyone in the war. You could call Billy a loon but we’ve never seen him cruel, and he hasn't ever even had a violent thought about anyone during the whole entire war, and Billy has been kicked around a lot. Billy crying when he see’s the horses is something that I really respect about his character. He was in tears at the sight of the only damage he’s done in the war; two dehydrated horses with sore mouths.
When I found out that Billy was looting Dresden with the other Americans it was not surprising, and it did not change my opinion of him. Billy had nothing. The people of Dresden were dead and didn’t have a use for things they had left behind. Overall, I believe that Billy is a good person at heart that’s had a lot of bad things happen to him. As everyone else is saying above, I disagree with why you all are saying it is very odd that Billy had not sort of emotion after Valencia’s death because she ran to him. But in all reality here we are talking about BILLY. The mentally delusional guy who is too caught up in himself to worry about her.
I think Billy crying for the horses shows he does have some emotion. The horses didn't choose to be put through that and never had a choice when it came to being put in the war to do labor that man himself can't do. I believe this is part of the reason Billy cried for them. They were innocent animals who had no way of knowing what was going on or why they were in so much pain. The men in the war knew what they were doing and killed people without second thoughts, both sides of the fight did the same thing. They killed the enemy, captured them, and treated them with no respect, as if they weren't human beings, and for this reason Billy didn't show emotion towards them. War is a terrible thing and it does terrible things to a persons mind when they go through that much. Billy had become numb to the things going on around him until the couple pointed out the condition the horses were in. This woke Billy up and he realized the destruction he had caused, bringing tears to his eyes.
I don’t know the rest of you but when I see a movie with and the dog dies I will probably cry, but if it was a person I probably won’t. Is anyone else this way or am I just weird. This is also the reason I don’t read books about dogs because almost all dog books are sad and the dog probably dies by the end.
I kind of get that feeling that Billy hadn’t really noticed how much he care about things until he really started to open his eyes to what really goes on in this world. This scene made me think of the movie War Horse, and how horribly the horses were treated toward the end of the war because of low supplies and such (which by the way made me cry during that movie). Honestly if I was in his shoes I probably would have started crying right there and then the moment I saw how badly those animals were treated. Animal abuse is neither something I take lightly, nor other people as well.
I was really shocked by Valencia's death. When the chapter opened with "this is how Billy lost his wife", I was expecting a whole different setting and a different problem. However, it spoke about the plane crash. I knew she wasn't on the plane, so I wondered how it happened to be the cause of her death. And then, I figured it would be the car crash that killed her. It only made sense; she was distracted and speeding.
But then, she was killed by the car in the parking lot of the hospital. Just before she manages to even go inside the hospital consciously, she dies. I find this ironic because it wasn't the crash that killed her - either of them - but the lack of a functioning exhaust. It was something she could have avoided, had she waited for another car to arrive or let the Mercedes take her to the hospital or an ambulance. I think it's ironic in many ways. First, it was a simple way that she passed but second, she was going to the hospital to make sure that if anything happened, she was there for her husband. She wanted to prevent him from dying without seeing her, but in the end she died without seeing him. In a third way, it indirectly satirizes hospitals. There Valencia was, sick in the parking lot, and they still could not save her. She died in the place where she should have been saved.
Most of the novel consists of situations revolved around death. Vonnegut refers to death in many different ways but all of the deaths are extremely tragic. After referring to death so many times and so nonchalantly the reader(or at least myself) starts to forget the seriousness of death. When Vonnegut tells of Valencia's death it kind of opens the readers eyes and reminds them that death is death. It catches the readers attention because even though it was so basic in comparison to other deaths in the novel, it was also very strange and uncommon. It seemed that he wanted to show that it is just not well this person died and so on, but that they actually mattered.
The looting of cities during war has always happened, and still continues to happen. I don't look down on Billy for looting Dresden, the people had no more need of their belongings. Another reason I don't look down on him is because if the soldiers didn't loot some of the city then someone else would have. In my opinion, the soldiers who fought in the war, not thieves who come like vultures, should receive the spoils of war. Secondly, Valencia's death was very ironic, going to see her husband to make sure he did not die. On the way to the hospital she gets into a crash and keeps driving, in the hospital parking lot she dies of carbon monoxide poisoning. Her death could easily have been avoided, but Billy already knew it was going to happen because of his "time-traveling." I think the combination of this and how much death he has seen in the war numbs her death to him.
i liked Valencias death the best because she obviously loved billy more than billy loved her. it is shown throughout the whole book and its a little bit darkly humorous at times. she died in the most humorous way possible of an accidental carbon monoxide poisoning after hitting another car and being hysterical it was too much like her character. i love that also i looked up carbon monoxide poising and how it happens and essentially carbon monoxide is treated like oxygen in your lungs and is aloud to pass into the blood then it bonds to the red blood cells one hundred or so times more tightly than regular oxygen so it cant be taken off of the red blood cells. essentially starving your body of oxygen. really a poetic way to go out.
Billy and the Americans looting Dresden really had not effect of my views of him. He was being held prisoner there, and under not so good circumstances. He and the other Americans are obviously not going to respect the city. They are especially not going to respect the people holding them their as prisoners of war. Honestly, I probably would have done the same thing. Especially if I found myself in the same situation as Billy. The fact that the other Americans were doing the same thing made it seem less harmful to me. Even if Billy wasn't looting Dresden, the other Americans still would be.
The fact that Billy’s experiences on Tralfamadore mirrors The Big Board makes me conclude that he is not a reliable narrator. Before I thought that he just made most of his story up but now I can see that he just takes his real experiences and converts them into an entirely different reality in his mind. This is plausible due to his history of mental illness/ injuries and the effects war has had on him. The serenity prayer also lends to the possibility of Billy incorporating real life into fantasy. I would like to say that he had the prayer in his office before he saw it on Montana’s necklace but I’m not completely sure. If there were a sure way to tell which part of his life came first it would make my point stronger. The same thing goes for whether he read the book first and then taken to Tralfamadore or vice versa.
I feel as though it was sort of odd that the only time Billy cried throughout the novel, was when the horses died. Almost the entire novel we have never seen Billy show any type of emotion. I feel as though Billy was immune to people dying and it was normally people who were not innocent. He knew the horses were innocent and that’s what hurt him the most. Often in life, people tend to give more sympathy to animals than people. Animals are helpless and cannot defend themselves as humans can. I also think that Billy has been holding up these emotions inside of him for too long. They kept building up and once he saw the horses die, he finally cracked and let all of his emotions out.
Valencia's death threw me off guard. I was shocked! I found it very ironic that she died while trying to save her husband. Billy's reaction to the loss of his wife, however, threw me even more off guard. He had no reaction, no grieving, no tears, no "why me", nothing. Then to find out he shed a year because of the poor conditions of the animals but not the death of his wife was very strange. Don't get me wrong, I'm an animal lover, but don't you think the loss of someone important in your life should result in a little more emotion? It forced me to like Billy a little less. He is a very complex character that I am still trying to figure out.
The words engraved on the outside of Montana’s locket are quite moving, even in real-life scenarios. “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom always to tell the difference.” I am sure we all know what this means because to me it is blunt. This quote we see on the locket and in Billy’s office is a law of life that we should live by. We must realize that the past is the past and we can do absolutely nothing to change what has happened. In more cliché terms, we should forgive and move on. I have accepted the past in my life, therefore I am a much happier person. Moving on and accepting that it is over with aids to a healthier and happier life.
The quote also says for god to grant you courage to change the things you can. This is very important because it is saying that you must stick up for yourself and your beliefs. Lastly, we must have wisdom to be able to tell the difference when it is the past and we must accept it versus when it is the present and we must fight for our beliefs.
In chapter nine of the novel, I believe that Rumfoord was brought into the story to add a sense of realism to the plot. He was used to question Billy’s sanity, in which frames the novel’s plot. When Billy woke up, he told Rumfoord and Lily he had been in Dresden, however, at first Rumfoord didn’t believe Billy as he thought he had echolalia, repeating anything he hears around him. Rumfoord complains to the nurses about his condition, and upon further inspection, find that Billy doesn’t actually have the disorder. After Rumfoord’s finding out that he was telling the truth, Billy goes on to promise that he was there, and wanted Rumfoord’s word of honor to believe that he was there. Rumfoord explained that it had to be done, and Billy agreed with him that it couldn’t change, as it was the Tralfamadorian way.
Rumfoord is an interesting character. He seems like a stereotype. The old, rich, war-loving cradle-robber. His main purpose is to give Billy an Earthly outlet for his experience in Dresden. Billy already told Valencia, but she loves him too much for the story to have any weight. Her sympathy is clouded by her admiration for Billy's service. Rumfoord doesn't really believe Billy right away, and for a logical reason: he doesn't want to. It's not a good reason, but it makes sense. He had already dismissed Billy as dead, undeserving of sympathy, and if Billy were right, he would have to be wrong.
Billy having read The Big Board in the past is a revealing moment for the reader. Not that Billy being a reliable narrator was ever true, but now we have a cause for why he might have brought up Tralfamador. Throughout history, people who have sustained massive head trauma and survived tended to act differently than before, so differently they are considered insane. Billy, who after the plane accident had a fractured skull, could very well have had something triggered in his brain that made him remember the Trout novel as if he had experienced it first-hand. Vonnegut takes this situation to teach the reader. The questions and situations comes upon during Billy’s times in Tralfamador offers deep thought and compels us to think about humanity and our way of life and how we should change to “see the big picture” like the Tralfamadorians are able to, and to infer that war is not worth anything in the long run.
I think Vonnnegut put's Billy in the adult bookstore because many of his experiences are related to situations in the bookstore. This is showed when the stories about a man and a woman being kidnapped and taken to a faraway planet. Also in Montana's adult video with aliens in a zoo. These all are the same as Billy's stories. After hearing of the bookstore I believe Billy does not have memory of these events happening, but has imagined situations where he puts himself in the middle of fictional works.
Most commonly, when people die of carbon monoxide poisoning, it's suicide. When we learned in the beginning of the book that that was how she would die after Billy's crash, I immediately assumed that it was suicide. The way Valencia died, though, had quite a bit of irony. Like I said, this cause of death is usually intentional. With Valencia, though, is was her beloved husband at death's door. She was merely trying to get to him. She cared about nothing other than getting to his bedside. Suicide is often seen as a selfish crime (not my opinion, please don't give me crap for that, it just is). What Valencia did was possibly the most selfless thing she had ever done, thinking only of her dear husband and trying to get to him at all costs. It seems that the price was just a bit higher than anyone has predicted. Also, I realize that by saying "So it goes", Kurt Vonnegut is showing how desensitized to death Billy has become, but the woman was his wife. You would think her death would have a bit stronger of an effect on him.
I think the Rumford section ends after Billy mentions Tralfamadore because he thinks Billy is crazy again. Rumford was convinced, at first, that Billy was just repeating him and really wasn't involved with Dresden. He started to listen to Billy but once he brought up aliens I'm sure Rumford was done.
The fact that Billy had already read The Big Board suggests that Billy could be imagining everything because it's his coping mechanism. I's easier to imagine that nothing is in your control and your life has already been lived rather than accept the fat that you need help. Billy went through a great deal in the war and instead of facing these memories, he combines them with a scenario that would make it easier to deal with.The symptoms and effects of being unstuck in time and being kidnapped could be the symptoms and effects of PTSD.
The significance of the Jesus story is that Jesus helped build the device that would ultimately be used in his own torture/death. I thought it was interesting that Lance Corwin went back in time to find out if Jesus really died or not. Most people would time travel to change something not to find the truth. I wonder if he considered stopping Jesus from building the cross or getting rid of the design completely.
The fact that Billy, along with the rest of the Americans, raided Dresden after the bombing doesn't shock me nor does it change my opinion of them men. After being captured and imprisoned for what seemed like forever they are finally set free. But, this is only due to the destruction around them. Although the German's were the ones who put the soldiers in prison, ironically enough, they were also the ones taking care of them. With the Germans now gone the Americans are left with nothing. They have no way of knowing where they are or how to survive. By raiding Dresden after its demise, maybe the Americans would be able to find something to sustain them while they attempt to remain alive. Like I said before, the fact that the Americans raided Dresden after its destruction doesn't change my opinion on them at all. They did what they had to as to survive.
Earlier in the novel when it was stated that Valencia died the way she had, I had automatically thought it was suicide. Pretty logical, right? It's a common way for someone to kill themselves. But what I had initially thought wasn't what had happened. She had died from an overload of emotions, which adds irony to the story. Billy seems to be unable to feel emotions, or maybe he doesn't let himself feel them. Either way he has himself shut off to emotions.
I do find it strange that the only time Billy cried throughout the duration of the novel was when the horses died. However, after seeing so much death and pain in people I think he had grown sort of immune to all of the chaos. Nevertheless, him crying because of the horses says a lot about him. He was sad for them. Sad that their beauty and innocence had to come to an end, when they had never done anything wrong. I think this shows that Billy is just. He understands what is true and what is right.
Valencia's death was definitely a curious one. After a quick scan through the comments, the general consensus here seems to be that Valencia's death is romantic and heartbreaking. And yes, while the inner-romantic in me grieves for Valencia and her love for her husband, I can't help but point out the lesson to be learned here. Valencia died racing to see her injured husband at the hospital, but the carbon monoxide killed her before she got the chance to see him. Her love for him was limitless and undying, whereas Billy doesn't really care for her (his lack of a reaction to her death is proof enough). This just goes to show that love can be toxic, especially when one is consumed in it. It shows the danger of giving more love than you can get, which is something nobody should romanticize.
The Big Board mirrors Billy's experiences on Tralfamadore almost exactly. This suggests that Billy has gone insane and wants to make a science fiction book he read his reality. Tralfamadore is not real, and all the ideas the Tralfamadorians have given Billy are not real. Billy is just reenacting a book. I think Billy's time travelling is just him dreaming. With PTSD comes flashbacks, and Billy just confuses his flashbacks with time travel. His obsession with sci-fi has taken over his brain as a way to cope with the war.
Billy and the Americans looting in Dresden does not change my opinion of him at all. There was no one alive, and they were in need. The people who lived in the houses they were stealing from were not going to return anyways. When Billy realizes that he has read The Big Board before, it made me think that the whole story about the tralfamadorians was made up. Maybe Billy really was an unreliable narrator this whole time? But when I see that Montana is wearing a necklace with the same quote in Billy's office, it all seems real again. I am very confused, but I think that after Billy reads the quote on Montana's necklace, and evaluates his circumstances in life, he frames the quote and puts it in his office.
I was very shocked when Velencia died. The fact that she died while trying to save her husband is very ironic though, which made me laugh because every story has to have some funny/ironic death. I think that Billy didn't react at all to her death though is because of all of his mental disabilities, not that he just didn't feel anything but that he just didn't register what just happened. Even with that though he might not be able to register emotions like normal people too. He may not grieve like we do, how we cry or eat our feelings away. Billy has so many different realities it is hard for him to find himself.
It's interesting to me how Billy remembers he read the novel, and mentions how it mirrors his experience on Tralfamadore. With that being said I wonder if all his stories stem from this one novel or maybe from something else. Billy remembers this story but forgets reading it so he believes it actually happened to him when it really didn't. Valencia's death was different I would say! Whenever someone dies it's obviously heartbreaking but this death was somewhat romantic in a way because she tried saving her husband in the mix of it! I think this shows that sometimes one person can love the other person too much and not get anything in return. You have to be careful when it comes to love because you just never know!
I believe that Rumfoord is brought into the story so that Billy can openly reflect on his past once again. In doing so, we learn more about Billy's war experiences, such as the true meaning for why he weeps every so often (the horse incident) and the meaning behind the novel's epigraph. At first, Rumfoord thinks that Billy is merely a shell of a man: even going so far as to say that Billy is a waste of space in the hospital. Because of Billy's weak and "vegetable" state, Rumfoord believes that Billy never truly was in Dresden and was merely exhibiting echolalia. As the interactions between the two men continue, Rumfoord starts to believe that Billy was at Dresden and tells Billy that "It had to be done". Lastly, I believe that there are two reasons for why the Rumfoord section ends after Billy mentions the Tralfamadorians. One reason for why the section may have ended is because Rumfoord started questioning Billy's sanity after "talking about aliens", while the other reason would be because Billy remembered the Tralfamadorians and wanted to hurry to "tell the world" about them.
Honestly, out of all of the horrible things mentioned in this book, the part about the dog being fed a spring-steak and the conditions of the horses brought out the most emotional response. I'm also an avid animal lover, maybe Billy was too. But the one thing that sets the events of the war and the horses' condition apart is that Billy could only take blame for the horses. The war itself, was not Billy's fault, the candles and soap made out of human fat, also not Billy's fault. The treatment and care of the horses, was at the hands of Billy. He could have freed them, gave them water, breaks, care, but didn't. He was so engulfed in the small luxuries of this time that he did not realize what he had done to the poor creatures that had done nothing to him, and will not receive anything in return for their hard work. Then, after being untied from the wagon, the didn't move because the damage had already been done, and there was nothing Billy could do about it. If I were Billy, yeah, I'd cry too.
I think that Vonnegut chose to have Valencia die that way because of Billy’s character. Billy is a very weird, crazy character. The way that Valencia dies is weird and crazy and unexpected. There’s a connection there between Billy’s personality and the way Valencia died. I think Rumfood is brought into the story to show that some people really aren’t stupid and can see when people are just being crazy. He actually inquires information about Dresden and about all of Billy’s stories. He moves the plot along by trying to get as much information out of Billy as he can so we can finally all figure out what is up with Billy. Is he crazy or does he really have these time traveling powers?
How many times have you seen someone cry when the dog dies in a movie? Too many times. It's because animals (dogs in particular) are seen as innocent in our eyes and more often than not, they do not deserve the death they are given. I believe this is the same mind set of Billy Pilgrim. He has been subjected to and witnessed so much pain, but all of the evil that he has been a part of has had more or less reason. The horse is much like the prisoners of war; he was taken without question as a source of labor and forced to work until his body was in shambles. It makes sense that Billy would cry when finding out that he has committed the same evil as his own captors. The fact that Kilgore wrote a book that closely resembled Billy's time on Tralfamadore greatly makes me question the integrity of his story. There are two options: Billy imagined it ll after reading the book, or Kilgore stole Billy's story. As to which on is correct, you would be better off consulting a more qualified reader.
Billy is a genuinely caring person, but the war forced him to be "tough" in the sense that he stopped responding. When he cries about the horses, I think he finally realized the intensity of his new reality. He has discussed death and struggle with loss (So it goes.), but torture is something else entirely. It's a lasting hurt. That pain doesn't end. As the Tralfamadorians see it, every moment is structured. Scenes of death end the cruelty of life. Scenes of torture continue on. Those horses were treated "no more sensitive than a six-cylinder Chevrolet." The war treated Billy no more sensitive than a soldier. There many parallels, but the horse pitiers had scolded Billy for the mistreatment of the horses. And just like a small child blamed for a spilt juice box, he allowed tears to spill onto the ground. Billy hadn't cried about anything else, and thus is compared to the Christ in Away in the Manager. The difference being, Billy lives hopelessly, while Christ lives with a will to care for everyone.
The fact that Billy was looting in Dresden doesn't change my opinion of him. War is a thing that will change the morals of any person. Even though he was stealing from the dead, it is no worse than what anyone else would have done. It could have even been that what Billy, or anyone from that matter, stole is what saved them from death at a later point in the war.
My favorite part of this chapter was probably the scene where Billy was in the adult bookstore. He saw Kilgore Trout's four books in the display and didn't remember reading them. When he was reading Trout's book, all of the employees at the book store kept pushing him to the adult section in the back. During their first attempt, Billy grabs Trout's book about Jesus and takes it to the back. When they notice him reading one of the display books in the back, they find him strange and urge him to go back to the adult section. He watches a few seconds of his Tralfamadorian lover but feels dirty and leaves. I think this say a lot about Billy Pilgrim and it proves that he is not like the men who find pleasure in watching these videos and flipping through these magazines.
Y’know I felt really bad when Valencia died. Billy had no way of knowing she passed or how it happened and she died not knowing if he survived or not. I know Billy didn’t reciprocate Valencia’s feelings, but it was still his wife and they did have a family together. I couldn’t figure out any symbolism as to why she died the way she did (as with most things I read). I just thought that it was unexpected.
I find it odd that many of Billy's strange encounters seem to mirror Trout's books. His "experience" on planet Tralfamadore is so lose to the hero's experiences in The Big Board that I find it hard to believe it is a coincidence. What are the odds, that a patient in a mental hospital reads a science fiction book about being abducted by aliens and kept in a zoo, and then actually get abducted by aliens and held in a zoo? But what are the odds that a patient in a mental hospital reads a science fiction book about being abducted by aliens and kept in a zoo, and then believes he was also abducted by aliens and held in a zoo? I would say the latter has better odds. Also earlier in the novel, Trout mentions something about a "time window", suddenly seeing something for the future or the past, much like Billy's "time traveling". I find it hard to believe it is simply coincidence that Billy seems to be "experiencing" many of the things that Trout writes about, especially with his shady mental health. With this new knowledge about The Big Board novel and the "time window" Trout spoke of, it is easy to see that Billy was stuck in a fantasy world, in his own head. This also helps explain why his daughter seemed to hate Trout so much, she may blame him for her fathers insanity.
Billy is over all a good person. And everyone does dumb things once and a while, but one blemish doesn't-nor shouldn't- define a person. Billy was getting desperate for supplies. He was still wearing the Cinderella boots. The soldiers were dead. They had no use any more from the items. It wasn't as if he was stealing from the soldiers. He was making the best of the worst if situations. I don't think less of him, because if the role was reversed, I would have done the same thing. At that point it's about survival.
I thought the way Valencia died was horrible. Not only did she get into a car accident, but she ends up passing out from carbon monoxide poisoning and dies. Especially since she never found out if Billy was okay. Billy had no way of knowing what had happened to her either. Even though they weren't the strongest couple, they were still married and that has to mean something. In the beginning, I thought she had committed suicide. It really shocked me!
I find it creepy that Valencia died downstairs while Billy was asleep upstairs in the hospital, and he didn’t have an instinct or gut feeling about it. It also shows how much Valencia loved Billy and was willing to do anything for him, but he never truly loved her. I love the quote from Truman and the parts of the foreword that describe the attack on Dresden. It shows the magnitude of the bombing and how Hiroshima and Tokyo weren’t the only major bombings and millions of innocent people were killed just to kill a few ‘bad guys’. Rumfoord is a pretty ironic guy, thinking that the weak should be killed, but yet he is so into war history and the strong people are on the front lines and are the ones that got killed first. He added some comic relief when he thought Billy was just repeating him, and insisted that the doctors get him help, but then refuses to listen to what Billy has to say. I like how the soldiers were looking for things, and finding something good in the midst of destruction, and Billy crying over the horses shows that he has a glimpse of a ‘good side’. The adult bookstore shows that Billy isn’t into the typical things most men would be interested in.
Okay, I'm starting to see the 2/13 pattern now. I think its significant death days?
Eh, I guess you can't blame Billy's daughter to rid of Mr. Trout. He's someone that Billy just met on the streets selling/delivering newspapers. I wouldn't be to fond of him either!
I did find it quite odd that all the Americans made it through the bombing of the city in the slaughterhouse. I guess I didn't think about the Inn much. It does seem like a bit of a fantasy scene, interestingly enough.
Up to this point in the book I feel really thrown off with all these time changes. I know its just the nature of the book but I really don't like it. I mean the book is interesting but I would most definitely would still not be reading this if I was just casually picking it up. It's just not my cup of tea. Don't get me wrong its a good book but with all these flash backs and forwards. Billy’s insanity off the charts. It feels like he was high if mushrooms his whole entire life to me. I don;t know really with this book I’m just kinda going with the flow of it and getting my mind ready for the new change in scenery..
(Chapter 9)
I suppose the author didn't want to make the story boring by giving Valencia a overused, predictable death. Maybe he used ideas from the news or stores he'd heard to create her death scene. She did seem pretty dedicated and determined to get to Billy, as though she had something important to say? Or maybe she just wanted to know how her husband was hold up.
The Roosevelt quote is strange... I didn't really get it. It probably takes more thought to understand it than I've put into it thus far. I'll keep it in mind, though.
Rumfoord doesn't believe Billy at first, because he thinks that Billy is just a crazy waste of life. He even accused Billy of having echolalia. The Rumfoord section ends, because Billy's mention of aliens would surely set off Rumfoord and make him disregard his belief of what Billy said. When Billy crashed, Valencia rushed to see him and died in the process. I think Vonnegut killed her in this way because Valencia adored Billy, so much so that she even died for him. This shows the nature of their marriage and relationship. Even though Billy was only an optometrist, I think he was a true animal lover. The only time he cried in the war was for the horses. He either is an avid animal's right activist, or just had great agony for how he used the poor beaten horses.
Rumfoord reminds me of Kanye West. He is a hero to some but an egotistical maniac to most. A man that is in love with his self and has more money than a lot of people, Kanye and Rumfoord could be brothers.
Valencia's death was very sad because you can just feel how much Valencia really loves Billy. After hearing about the plane crash she hysterically drives to him with all the emotions that are flowing through her. After getting in an accident she is still dedicated to see billy. just as she makes it to the hospital not realizing that the accident messed up her car she ends up dying of Carbon Monoxide poisoning. She never got to see Billy one last time. It seems throughout the novel Billy has always had this sad unfortunate events and tragedies that always find him. I hate to see stories like this because it is just heart breaking. If Billy never got on the plane because he knew it was going to crash, then Valencia would have never even died which I can't understand
Vonnegut killed off Valencia in a way that showed passion and love. When vaguely described as carbon monoxide poisoning, you are left assuming her death was suicide. Instead, her death portrayed such powerful love for her husband that she would stop at nothing to confirm his well-being, even if it meant her own. This was surely ironic, but maybe Vonnegut did not write it in such a misdirecting way for that single purpose. Suicide is intriguing. It is still taboo and to talk about it stirs up a lot of emotion, at least for me. So to lead us to think that Valencia's death was an intentional trial on her own life is to intrigue us to further ourselves about her offing.
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