Why are the scouts killed,
but not Weary or Billy?
p. 56: Is there any significance to this instance of time travel? Any significance to falling asleep (increasingly) at work?
What is "Ausable Chasm"?
What does the Lion's Club do? Who can join?
Interesting that Billy was not affected by the talk of bombings in Vietnam...why do you think he is so ambivalent?
What is the origin of the prayer on Billy's office wall? What group is associated with this prayer? What does this suggest about Billy?
Why do you think Billy just randomly weeps now?
Is there any significance in Billy's business investments?
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." Love those lines.
Any significance to Billy's train moving and his being abducted by aliens?
p. 56: Is there any significance to this instance of time travel? Any significance to falling asleep (increasingly) at work?
What is "Ausable Chasm"?
What does the Lion's Club do? Who can join?
Interesting that Billy was not affected by the talk of bombings in Vietnam...why do you think he is so ambivalent?
What is the origin of the prayer on Billy's office wall? What group is associated with this prayer? What does this suggest about Billy?
Why do you think Billy just randomly weeps now?
Is there any significance in Billy's business investments?
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." Love those lines.
Any significance to Billy's train moving and his being abducted by aliens?
87 comments:
The prayer on Billy Pilgrim’s office wall is truly captivating. The prayer, “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And Wisdom to know the difference,” more commonly known as the “Serenity Prayer” has a long list of associations and an amazing beginning. This prayer is often associated with the people opposed to the atrocities of Nazi Germany during World War II. This prayer was written by Reinhold Niebuhr, a German-American who was forced to choose between the United States and Nazi Germany; particularly whether or not to involve himself in an anti-Nazi cause in his homeland, as he was powerless from U.S. soil. This prayer suggests that Billy too is haunted by his past, particularly his time serving in the war. With his past coming back to haunt him, Billy is forced to choose between moving forward with his life or regressing back to a state of fixation over his prior actions—this seemingly easy decision is becoming harder and harder for Billy to make with each passing moment. With this enormous decision looming over his head, Billy feels as if he is completely alone and the world is closing in around him, causing him to weep at the drop of a hat.
There is another association with the prayer, so while Grant did a nice job here, anyone want to add to it?
I think that Weary and Billy were taken alive, while the scouts were killed, because the Germans knew that Weary and Billy were not soldiers. Billy looks like Icabod Crane, and Weary is lost in his own delusions. When the Germans find Billy and Weary, Weary is beating Billy. They are an odd sight, and can be immediately classified as ‘not a threat’. The scouts were lying in ambush for the Germans and were killed because they were dangerous. Billy and Weary are not dangerous. If we take a look at the Germans, we can see that they’re a group of misfits. The German shepherd is a farm dog, there are two teens, two old men, and one actual soldier. They probably saw Weary and Billy as captives they could handle, while the scouts were dangerous soldiers.
Billy starts falling asleep at work while examining patients, but he still needs the help of "magic fingers" to fall asleep at night. Billy "time travels" a lot too. He will be sitting at work while imagining that he is still in the war. Billy also begins to weep at the most random times. His symptoms make it quite evident that he has a mental illness; this is typically characterized as post-traumatic stress disorder. The mental problems that Billy manifests make his perspective quite unreliable. This is most likely the reason why Billy also believes he was abducted by aliens.
Only in times of complete desperation, and near annihilation, does it seem humans can overcome their self-desire and selfishness. "When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share," is proof to that sad truth of the reality of humanity. When we’re reduced to nothing, and all hope is taken away, we are left with just the basic necessities which keep us alive. I digress to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs which establishes the basic needs for humanity: physiological, safety, belonging, self-esteem, and self-actualization. Without the base physiological needs (i.e. food, water, shelter) being met, you cannot move up the hierarchy. Thus, the realization for safety, belonging, self-esteem, and self-actualization cannot be realized, and eliminates pretty much all human self-desire, and adjusts the focus to survival. This theory of humanity explains why Billy Pilgrim would observe such behavior from his fellow prisoners. No one would rebel or act out, because they were focused on the little food they were about to receive that would help them survive. Billy viewed the rawness of humanity, and in a way it was beautiful, just like the beauty found in nature.
I believe that Weary and Billy were taken alive and the scouts were killed because the Germans believed that Weary and Billy were not enemy soldiers. They are really the exact opposites of soldiers. One is completely delusional while the other is lost in his emotions. While the scouts appeared as more of a threat and enemy to the Germans. Billy is forced with an internal conflict on whether to move forward with his life and do something or move back and not do anything while teetering with his prior actions. It appears as if Billy has a mental illness that keeps progressing.
Most have explained Billy and Weary as being taken alive and the scouts being killed from the perspective of the German soldiers. But, since the German soldiers are characters as well, I think the real question is why Vonnegut chose to kill off the two scouts, leaving Billy and Weary as the two survivors. I would like to note that there is a sort of pattern in this. Billy was the lone survivor in the plane crash. Weary was the lone survivor of the gun crew. I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to point to, so I welcome some other thoughts on this. All I can think is that it may be to demonstrate a point that war isn't fair. Survival is not necessarily based on skill. There is chance in everything.
All the evidence so far seems to point to Billy having a mental illness. He randomly has flashbacks of the war, he begins to weep for some unexplained reason, he is falling asleep at work, and he has hallucinations of aliens. While I don't know for sure what this illness is, I will assume it is post-traumatic stress disorder because he was captured by the Germans as a prisoner of war. Not only did the soldiers capture him, but they took pictures to show how ill-equipped American soldiers were at the time. Just before they were captured, Weary had attempted to mortally wound Billy. It would make perfect sense for him to be mentally scarred after everything that occurred during the war.
Meghan Gore
I think that when he is "falling asleep" at work, he isn't really falling asleep but that he is just lost in the memories of his past which is considered his "time traveling". So both really go hand in hand. On page 56, the lady that he was examining said that he was talking and then got really quiet. He all of the sudden got really quiet because he got so caught up in his "time traveling" (which is him focused on his memories)
Meghan Gore
I think that when he is "falling asleep" at work, he isn't really falling asleep but that he is just lost in the memories of his past which is considered his "time traveling". So both really go hand in hand. On page 56, the lady that he was examining said that he was talking and then got really quiet. He all of the sudden got really quiet because he got so caught up in his "time traveling" (which is him focused on his memories)
The other scouts are killed by a shower of bullets from German soldiers. Billy and Weary remain alive because they were abandoned by the two. A group of four German "soldiers", although more closely resembling civilians, spot the two, Weary making an attempt on Billy's life. The misfitting Germans are curious as to why in a time of war, one would go to war with the only one he has. Instead of being viewed as a threat and being gunned down immediately, the German's take the American soldiers as prisoners of war.
The scouts had been killed for their actions as soldiers. When approaching Weary and Billy, it's clear that these fools were of no threat, and if anything Weary would have killed Billy before the Germans did. It was these foolish actions that allowed Billy and Weary to be captured instead of shot. Billy also has a strange connection between the train and the aliens because of how slow the train moves. The train drifts at a speed (from a later chapter) around 2 mph. This slow progress represents the time warps that slows time so that Billy may be in a zoo all in one night. This relation allows Billy's different time flashes to interchange between these two moments of his life.
I think that Billy and Weary were taken alive because the Germans were curious on why Weary was beating up Billy and why Billy was laughing. At the end of chapter 2 the narrator says “The soldiers’ blue eyes filled with a bleary civilian curiosity as to why one American would try to murder one so far from home, and why the victim should laugh.” The scouts may have been killed because they did not surrender but instead tried sneak through. The lion’s club is a volunteer group that tries to help improve the community. During the meeting Billy is unmoved by the idea of bombing Vietnam. I think Billy is unmoved because he has been to war and seen what happens and has become numb to the horror.
The Serenity Prayer referenced in Slaughterhouse Five is also associated with Alcoholics Anonymous and other twelve-step programs. The Serenity Prayer was first introduced to AA in 1941 and has been used ever since. The Serenity Prayer offers a clearer perspective of life for recovering addicts who may have felt lost, alone, and hopeless. Often times, the Serenity Prayer is the first time addicts realize that despite the mistakes they may have made in the past, they still have the opportunity to change for the better. To me, the Serenity Prayer represents an unchangeable past, a wide open future, and the ever daunting present in which people must decide how to face the past and the future. I also think the Serenity Prayer is ironic in Slaughterhouse Five since Billy Pilgrim cannot change the past, the present, or the future.
I found Kayla Thomas' comment about Billy and Weary interesting. She brought up a good point! I'm not sure if Vonnegut is trying to foreshadow something or if that just shows how things happen sometimes. Part of me feels like it's karma. The scouts abandoned Billy and Weary, and that's what they get (not going to lie, I was partly amused that this happened). However, Billy and Weary could have survived for the sheer fact that the Germans thought it was a strange sight - an American attacking another American. Maybe they could get some entertainment. Is that a thing in war? Ehh..
But regardless, there is some sort of theme of triumph of an underdog. Although reality is harsh, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."
I would guess that Weary and Billy were captured alive because Weary was hurting Billy, and Billy thought it was funny. So this was puzzling for the Germans. It was really strange for an American to be attacking another American. They weren't shot and killed immediately because they weren't seen as a threat. I think that this might be showing an example of how war is so unfair. The scouts were gun downed, while Billy and Weary were just taken.
Ausable Chasm is a sandstone gorge that stretches approximately two miles in Keeseville, New York. It is mentioned on a bumper sticker during one of Billy’s time travel experiences. However, during this particular experience what seems to be a boring day in the office holds much more meaning. For example, we see that memories of the war still weigh upon Billy when he jumps at hearing the siren and automatically thinks of war breaking out. The most important line though is Billy’s question, “Where have all the years gone?” (p57). Referring to where has all the time gone that was meant for something greater than war. This is also what Billy weeps about. He cries more so though because he remembers the war, experiences flashbacks of his time there, of what he endured, and how no matter what he does, he will never be free of that.
I thought it was interesting that, while Billy and Weary were marching as prisoners, a photographer took a picture of their feet that “was widely published two days later as heartening evidence of how miserably equipped the American Army often was, despite its reputation for being rich”(58). It’s funny because Weary actually had very nice shoes, but they were taken by the Germans who captured them, while Weary got the clogs of the young German boy. It makes me think that even with photographic evidence we shouldn't necessarily believe everything. There’s always more to the story. A person can spin something any way they want, especially if it’s what someone else wants to hear.
I believe that Billy randomly weeps for one main reason. I believe that he weeps because of all the stress that these old war memories are putting on him, both mentally and emotionally. The war was the most traumatizing thing, or at least one of them, that Billy has ever experienced. He was constantly in danger of losing his life, he was beaten, he was almost shot several times, he was captured, and he was malnourished. All of these memories were lodged deeply within the back of Billy's memory, until, of course, he started to relive them over and over again.
Many times throughout the book Billy’s time travels correspond with events that are taking place during the war. Billy’s train starts moving and at the same time he is being abducted by aliens. There is obviously a connection between the two events, and I think that Billy’s time travelling can be attributed to the horrible things he was going through during the war. Another example is when the train arrives at the concentration camp and there is a cooing sound, just like the owl sounding before the Tralfamadorians take Billy. I think the abduction and all the crazy stories Billy is coming up with are a mechanism for dealing with the stressful events he is actually going through at the time. Billy needs an escape from all the war so he becomes “unstuck in time” to help him cope.
I think Billy randomly weeps because he keeps having thoughts about the war he was in. The stories he tells involve lots of death, and even though it sounds like he's apathetic about it by saying "so it goes" after he talks about it, he's actually very traumatized by it. It's obvious that he is showing signs of PTSD. Billy's train did not move for two days yet the guards kept the boxcars locked tight. Therefor, he is "stuck" on the train. I agree with Brendan Chuhy and how Billy's alien stories are a way he can become "unstuck in time", the Tralfamadorians probably make it so much easier for Billy to cope.
I agree with Marley when she says the scouts were killed as opposed to Weary or Billy because their behavior was so unusual and unthreatening. The other men actually looked like soldiers and looked threatening. The prayer on Billy's office wall is also known as the Serenity Prayer. Recovering alcoholics are often associated with this prayer as they try and find serenity throughout their struggling addiction and problems associated with their addiction. This suggests that Billy is trying to find some comfort in his confusing life.
I think Billy weeps simply because of all of the stress and thoughts he has been having. I do not think it is random though. I just think it is a long time coming. Everything he has been experiencing has been building up inside of him and he couldn't hold it in any longer. I don't think it is a bad thing. I actually think it is a very healthy thing to do. We all have those moments, don't we?
Roland Weary, an antitank gunner, was new to war. Weary had gotten the attention of a German Tiger tank, which killed his whole crew except Weary. Weary, two scouts, and Billy Pilgrim found themselves each without a crew and having to travel together in a pack. Weary had considered himself and the two scouts as “The Three Musketeers” and had envisioned them going on grand war adventures. Billy had been holding the group behind, and Weary was constantly going back to look for Billy. Eventually the two scouts had enough. They didn’t want to keep waiting around for Billy and Weary. The scouts decided to leave the two men, and as Weary beat Billy for being the main reason for the break-up of “The Three Musketeers” a gun shot was heard. The scouts were dead. So it goes.
I don’t think Billy just randomly weeps I think it’s from all the stress of supposedly being abducted by aliens and by all of his thoughts about the war and traveling through time. I think that this has been building up over the years and it just finally has come out and he has cracked. Not sleeping enough could add to all the weeping as well because being sleep deprived makes you do some strange things. I just think he needs to let it out and get more sleep and maybe he will eventually stop.
The scouts were killed because they were caught trying ambush the German soldiers. Billy and Weary were spared because they posed no threat. Neither looked like a proper soldier,and when the Germans found them one was beating the other to a pulp. I believe this is also a motif to Private Slovik. Just as Slovik abandoned his unit, the scouts abandoned their comrades; so both paid for desertion with their lives.
The significance of the train moving and the the alien abduction have to do with being trapped in time. Just as the train moves and as the aliens abduct him, Billy is at last being unstuck from time. He viewed his life as the stagnant train, and as it started to move, that was when time could continue to progress.
Billy and Weary are spared by the irregular group of German soldiers because they aren't seen as threats. The scouts are killed because they are waiting to ambush the Germasn but are instead discovered and killed from behind.To the Germans the scouts are dangerous enemies, while Billy and Weary are two delusional scavengers that can be handled by the Germans. The Germans are just trying to get back and they take the two so it looks like they have accomplished something.
To me, it seems like Billy may have weeped because he was exhausted and he wanted things to be normal. He didn't want to have to keep going back to the war or be thrown around in time. He wanted to live in the now and be a normal person and enjoy his family and spend time with the ones he loves. If he is constantly being beaten in the war and he always has to go back, it is never ending. War is already a horrible thing to go through once and he has to go through it over and over again without any warning. He probably feels lost and if he really is going senile, then he had to be confused.
Many of the things you've listed about Billy point to the fact he's struggling with a mental illness. He's sleeping (especially at work), his "time traveling", and his random weeping. These symptoms typically point to PTSD ( Post Traumatic Stress Disorder); a disorder commonly associated with soldiers who served in war. This is how he deals with what he went through and all that he saw. When he sleeps, he's trying to escape, work. Though, I find it interesting he needs the "magic fingers" to sleep at night. He "time travels" a lot, suggesting he's hallucinating back to the war. He also randomly weeps, he remembers what happened, or suddenly feels the loss. This makes lots of what he says mumbo-jumbo, for he takes these and says he was abducted by aliens.
I believe that the Germans had spared the lives of Weary and Billy because they were no immediate threat to them. To the Germans Weary and Billy were just two guys lost in their own delusions and emotions. I think Kayla’s point that Vonnegut had purposefully not killed the two men to prove that war was not fair was an incredible catch! Out of pure luck these two men have survived a plane crash and a open fire and are still physically able (I didn’t say mentally because they’re clearly not mentally stable). But with their lives comes more suffering, the side effects of war has taken over their minds and has askewed the world around them. To me this seems unfair to them to have to live in a constant state of panic and fear. Which leads me to ask why is Vonnegut keeping these two alive and what is the lesson that he is trying to teach?
Billy is so ambivalent about the bombings in Vietnam because death doesn't affect him. He's been through so much and was in a war that he still experiences. Along with that, it's hard for him to get emotional because he's always jumping through time. If he was exposed to the Vietnam war everyday he might be sad r upset, but he never lives day to day continuously.
Billy randomly weeps because being unstuck in time is taking a toll on his mental health. He doesn't know where he's going next or for how long. He has to go through the war and being a prisoner all over again. He can't sleep anymore. It's traumatic to never slow down or to never have a boring day.
The falling asleep at work is just Billy being "unstuck in time" I believe. The lines "When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." is showing that when you have nothing, not even the basic necessities you need to survive, you lose desire for anything but those things. Billy also shows many signs of PTSD, which probably has a lot to do with the randomly weeping.
One of the things I found interesting is that Billy starts to get unstuck in time when he's at his physical weakest. He's not too far from death, stranded in an unfamiliar land, with his only companion beating him. Then he starts having these strange experiences. This keeps the line blurry between his experience real in the world as opposed to real for him.
The prayer on his wall was written by Reinhold Neibuhr, and has been adopted by Alcoholics Anonymous and similar programs. It's interesting that Billy would have it, considering that we haven't known Billy to abuse any substances. Billy must have this to encourage him whenever his unintentional time-traveling discourages him.
One last interesting connection. As I write this, I'm listening to the soundtrack of one of my favorite games: Hotline Miami. It's a brutally violent game about a guy who receives mysterious messages telling him to kill people, which he does. The story is very surreal, with the main character slowly descending into madness. There's even a reveal the main character was killed by a boss that you had beat midway through the game. It's hard to tell what really going on. That's kind of like this book. Lots of weirdness, lots of mysterious happenings.
The possible significance to Billy constantly falling asleep at work would be that he almost misses war in a weird way. Billy is obviously bored with his profession, simply because he doesn't have passion for his job. You can also examine that Billy doesn't really do a whole lot so far. He observes everything happening around him, and I can't imagine that there is much to observe in the field of optometry. At least, not a lot that he is interested in. The Lion's Club is an organization that focuses more on the wellness of communities opposed to business issues.
I think Bill has PTSD for sure. As someone who also has it, I can somewhat understand. I think Billy has created such an elaborate... Thing for himself to escape but to also go back. It's a bit demented. I also believe that he remembers things the way he wants to, and that his mind creates things to suit himself, which I also understand. Sometimes you miss things, even though you shouldn't. Sometimes you let yourself create things in your mind to suit what's around you, to create a place to get away or a play you wish to be at still.
To add on to the discussion about the Serenity Prayer, I believe Grant and Paige made good points, but I think the prayer suggests a different side of Billy. It suggests that he is a sitting duck. I don't think Billy has been able to find peace after life dragged him through the war and the plane crash and the "time-travelling." He certainly does not contain the courage to change anything, although he does attempt to share his story to the world. Billy weeps randomly and takes involuntary naps at work, and he admits that he can't change his past, present, or future. If he doesn't have serenity or courage, then he undoubtedly does not have the wisdom to know the difference between what can be changed or not. Ultimately, this prayer shows hope. It offers a optimistic outlook that has all the serenity, courage, and wisdom he needs. It's an outlook that says, "Hey, maybe we do have a chance!"
The scouts that were travelling with Billy and Weary left them behind, so therefore were moving as just the two of them. When they saw that they were close to German opponents, they decided that they would stage an attack. They were laying in wait when they were captured and killed. On the other hand, Weary and Billy's lives were spared. I think this can be attributed in part to the fact that Billy looked so weak. Another part of it could have to pertain to Weary beating Billy while they were captured. The Germans were fascinated and confused as to why one American soldier was hurting another American soldier. Unlike the two scouts, Billy and Weary weren't planning to attack the Germans, they were actually just attacking one another. They seemed like no threat, while the scouts were definitely seen as a threat. In some ways Billy and Weary were lucky to be spared, but seeing their journey after that, that point could definitely be argued.
It actually isn't very interesting that Billy was not affected by the talk of bombings in Vietnam if you think about it. Billy was there during the bombing of Dresden it appears, and the narrator keeps reinstating that it was awful. He describes the aftermath as totally ruined and destroyed. I think Billy is so ambivalent because he's used to death and war. He lost his father in a hunting accident, his wife to carbon monoxide poisoning, and he's been to war, captured by Germans, and put on a cattle car for nine days. Billy has already at this point in the novel seen quite his share of destruction and warfare. I guess that over time a person eventually just becomes numb to such terror and sadness. I feel for Billy, and I wish that he wasn't so ambivalent, but what else can you expect from him? He's had a rough life.
I think the reason Billy weeps is because of PTSD from his experiences in the war. Billy is not affected by the talk of bombings in Vietnam because he experienced a bombing himself, and is no longer shocking to him. This chapter was very descriptive about many things, particularly things the Germans had. There was a lot of writing about the golden boots and the contents of the guard's rail-car.
Billy constantly weeps alone, no one knows but his doctor. I think that this happens because of the things he faced in the war. The toughest times he faced in the war was when he was alone and he spent much time alone there so maybe when he is alone at home he has the same overwhelming feeling of being alone like he was in the war. I also thought that he was maybe getting flashbacks or feelings of being in the war coming back to him.
The scouts end up being killed because they decided to split off for some reason. The scouts had a plan to wait out on a ridge and attack German soldiers only to be ambushed themselves. Whenever Billy falls asleep he seems to be traveling back to sometime in his civilian life or where we were last left off in his military story. The Ausable Chasm is a narrow stream between a canyon in the state of New York. The lions club is a volunteer leadership program with posts in most towns throughout the united states and men and women can join the lions club as well as some opportunities as teenagers.
Once again, we are left with Weary and Pilgrim, the forever surviving (for now at least). Those two cannot catch a break can they? The scouts died for the worst reason, doing what they believed would let them live. The scouts were shot from behind without warning. So it goes. But Billy and Roland were spared perhaps for their theatrical beating of one another. Kept alive for wanting one another dead. Ironic isn't it. The Ausable Chasm (according to Wikipedia) is a gorge composed of sandstone located in New York that is a minor tourist attraction in the Adirondack region of the state. We can assume that Billy has visited the chasm sometime in his future since both of the other bumper stickers are gifts from his father-in-law. At one of his Lion's Club meetings, a Vietnam veteran gives a speech about supporting the continued bombing until the Communists capitulate. Billy is not affected by this talk because of the prayer on his wall that speaks of the things that cannot be changed, things that he believe include the past present and future. So why would he object? According to him, it is already set and his efforts will not change the outcome. A rather narcissistic view if I do say so myself.
Ausable Chasm is a tourist attraction in New York. It is a two mile sandstone gorge that’s river is fed by the Rainbow Falls and empties in to Lake Champlain. As said on the bumper sticker, it seems like a nice place to visit someday. The serenity prayer on Billy’s office wall was interesting. It seemed to fit his life so far in the novel perfectly. He is struggling with what seems to be PTSD and the prayer may be a way for him to find strength. Many people use it to keep themselves going, not give up when things get hard, and recover, which is exactly what Billy needs. I also believe he weeps randomly because of this PTSD. He is hurting and has to keep reliving parts of his life whether he wants to or not, which can be a lot to handle.
I agree with Zanna that Billy shows the signs of having PTSD and does subconsciously create elaborate scenarios to help him cope with the events of the past, like his "alien story". But I think it's hard for him to stop the memories and flashbacks that control him every time he sinks into sleep. They are putting stress on him every day and night and I think that's why Billy cries unexpectedly, because of the constant stress of that memories that he cant suppress.
The Lion's Club is a humanitarian organization that completes service projects in the community and globally. They strive to fix problems and make the world a better place. To join, you basically just have to attend the meetings, making it open to anyone. It makes sense that Billy would join a service group in his adult life. He is trying to give back to the community. It makes you wonder if he is trying to atone for crimes he committed in the war himself, or just any atrocities in general.
I think Billy is so indifferent to the bombings in Vietnam because he has to be. If he opens himself up to feel empathy for what the Vietnamese are going through, it would tear him apart. This is merely a survival technique. Billy has been repressing his memories of the war for so long, just bottling them up, that now if he tried to express these feelings they would explode out of him like a waterfall. I believe that's why he randomly weeps all the time. That is a manifestation of his memories of the war, leaking out of whatever dark place he has them locked up in.
The cause of Billy’s random crying is most likely PTSD, which in WWII was called Battle Fatigue Syndrome. The intense fear, helplessness and horror of the war for Billy caused flashbacks, detachment, and difficulty staying awake and falling asleep. The reason why Billy was able to lead a normal life for so long was because PTSD doesn't always fully manifest right after the event, in Billy’s case it didn't fully begin until years afterwards, and was probably triggered by the trauma of the airplane crash, and the death of his wife. We could also argue that his “alien-situation” is a different breakdown all together, and Billy’s time traveling is just a crazy way of coping with the horrors he’s been through.
There is a great significance to the instance of time travel where Billy falls asleep at work. It explains that he has fallen asleep at work before and that it had been funny at first, but Billy begins to worry and himself and his mind in general. This is the first big hint that hit me saying that Billy has some sort of mental sickness or disability. Him falling asleep led him to waking up to not even remember his own age or even what year it was. Anytime this book takes a turn in time, it has a purpose.
At this point in the novel, it seems as though Billy doesn't care about life anymore or what happens to him. Billy has severe depression and it’s all because everything he has been through with the war. The war had a terrible effect on Billy and he’s not a normal human being anymore. He’s hopeless and has no feelings. When he’s taken away by the Tralfamadorian's, he feels as though he has a purpose in life. It gives him hope. Billy struggles a lot but grows stronger every day. He created a second world where he doesn't weep. This world becomes his escape from the real world.
"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And Wisdom to know the difference." This verse is on Billy's office wall. I think the meaning of this depends on who you ask. Throughout many things in history as well as present day it is used with many different interpretations. I feel like between Billy's falling asleep at work and other miscellaneous incidents he may be losing his mind. I also believe it's possible for him to have a type of disability. At first I think he is unaware that there may be something wrong, as the story goes on and incidents become more peeve lang I feel like he becomes more aware that he may have something wrong with him. I wonder what will happen next with him and his internal thoughts.
The origin of the prayer on Billy's office wall was to remind him to keep going. Many of the patients that saw the prayer expressed to Billy that that it encouraged them to keep going as well. "Among the things Billy Pilgrim could not change were the past, the present, and the future." (pg 60). This is a significant sentence because it is indirectly stating how his time travel due to the Tralfamadorians was not voluntary and that it is impossible to predict his future.
Billy weeps regularly because he has bottled up and seen so much over the years. He's watched countless amounts of friends and foes die. No matter how "manly" someone is, seeing death is something that won't leave easily. He may also be realizing that no matter what he does to try to rid his minds of the memories of war, they won't leave. And all he has control over is crying.
The lines "when food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share" makes me think of an old parable. It goes something like this, a man was talking with the Lord and asked what Heaven and Hell were like. So the Lord took him to a room and opened the door, inside were men sitting at a table looking all skinny and sickly. There were bowls of soup in the middle of the tables and the men held spoons with very long handles. The handles were so long that they could not get the food to their mouths and this is why they were starving. The man was shocked by the sight and the Lord said to him you have seen hell. The Lord then took the man to another room. This room had the same set up but instead the men were fat and jolly, laughing and talking. This represented Heaven. The man did not understand and the Lord told him it was simple, they had learned to feed each other while the other men were selfish and only cared about themselves. This story came to mind when after reading the quote because the men appreciated the food and shared with each other like the men in the room that was Heaven.
The Serenity Prayer just concludes the previous comment that “among the things Billy Pilgrim could not change were the past, the present, and the future.” It just goes to show that Billy is helpless towards his mental illness and wishes for strength as he cannot control his spontaneous entrances into the past, present, and future. It just goes to show that he is just going through the motions of life because there isn’t anything he can do. He can’t enjoy his life in the present because he is constantly taken into different elements of his past. Since the alien abduction, he has no longer chosen to live a life, but has surrendered into a slave-like future, giving in to the needs of his mind for the rest of forever. This prayer has shown that Billy has essentially given up, and that his life is nothing that he or even God can change.
"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to chance the things I can, and wisdom always to tell the difference." This quote hung upon Billy's office wall at the Optometrists shows the motivation that he seeks. However, this is more of a symbol for Billy to realize he cannot alter his stubborn past, present, and future. Though he enjoys thinking that he can and given the freedom to do so, life will never be fulfilling for him.
Like I said in a previous post, I truly feed bad for Billy. During his war experiences Billy is often solemn and quiet. He has no reaction to anything or at least, very odd reactions to situations such as laughing when Weary is kicking the crap out of him. Through all this, I believe Billy never truly addresses what he's feeling during the war. Due to all the repression of emotions Billy has done, I believe Billy weeps randomly now to make up for lost time. Although this may sound ludicrous, all those terrifying things that happened to or near Billy finally catch up to him at random times causing Billy to do into a deep sadness which in turn causes his random weeping spells.
My guess for why Billy randomly starts to weep is because of his hidden regrets about all of the things that have constantly occurred around him, mainly during the war. Due to Billy's meeting with the "Three Musketeers", he ultimately led them all to there demise. Because Billy had lagged behind in the group, he caused the two scouts to break away from Weary and die. Also, he led both Billy and Weary to being captured by breaking Weary to the point of utterly beating Billy. This commotion made the German people notice them out in the open, and lead the pair to their constant prisoner of war troubles. Knowing that he caused others so much pain during the war, Billy uncontrollably weeps every so often to cope with the emotional pain.
The Ausable Chasm is a tourist attraction in New York. It is basically a gorge that the Ausable River runs though. The Ausable Chasm is on one of the bumper stickers Billy’s father-in-law gave him. He has two others from him that say “Support Your Police Department” and “Impeach Earl Warren”. The chasm one and the police one go together because they are both about supporting New York, but the Earl Warren one struck me as odd. I looked him up and I found that he was a Supreme Court judge (and the governor of California at some point) who was most famous for ending segregation in schools. I continued to think it was odd until I remembered the time frame and then I wondered if Billy actually supported this or if he was only trying to please his father-in-law.
It was very interesting to me that Billy’s sees the image of Adam and Eve in the commander’s boots. Putting a referring to the bible in terms of war, to me, means that the commander is putting his life in the hands of his faith, being wounded, healed up, and sent back to war as many times as he has. This shows me that the commander believes no one is above the war, and the war is bigger then any one person that faith has to be involved to get through it alive and well.
In chapter three of the novel, the constant shift in Billy’s timeline gets rather annoying very quickly. I don’t really like when authors use this kind of style to explain events from the past, however, if you were in the mind of someone who has Posttraumatic Stress Disorder from warfare, as well as a possibility of brain damage from a plane crash, then I can see why Vonnegut chose to use a method like this. The idea of these major disabilities coincides with the fact that Billy randomly weeps now and again, as some memories from times past may be haunting him to the point of sorrow. He has a hard time forgetting his past, and is haunted by every little memory from his time in Germany. On top of this, he always talks about being abducted by aliens, in which I come to believe that he may be borderline psychotic.
I believe that Billy weeps randomly because the trauma he endured during the war. When he time travels that trauma seems like it was just happening. He may also be weeping because when he time travels he has no clue where or when he is. Every time it happens, he has get his wits about him to access the situation and figure out what is going on. Also, the train and the abduction show how Vonnegut uses the time travel to show similarities and parallels in Billy's life. He strings events together so that we can see how similar different instances are. This is especially visible in the fact that the train and the Tralfamadorians both are forcefully taking him away and keeping him in containment. The parallels in these events are undeniable.
Billy's weeping, insomnia, beliefs that he's been abducted by aliens, his neglect of his work and family, and the time hopping suggests that maybe none of it is real at all. After all this is a story written by a character in the book, I think it's possible that Billy is simply going crazy. We would all like to believe that this is really happening to Billy, but what if it's not? Will he snap out of it or will his delusions eventually cause his death? I think that would be an interesting twist on the story.
According to Cliffnotes Ausable Chasm is located in northeast New York,the chasm was caused by the plunging Ausable River,creating spectacular waterfalls,rushing rapids,and fantastic rock formations. Just in case you wanted to know, and because i have no idea! Something i do know a little more about is the Lions club and and basically they are a service organization which helps the community with whatever task is needed at the time. There are many different memberships and apparently according to the website, anyone can join. I think it's ironic that Billy Pilgrim is a member because he feels the need to give back to his community more, even though he already fought for America's freedom. Maybe he feels guilty for killing people, it still seems odd and surprising to me.I think Billy randomly weeps because he remembers certain moments that are sad just like the book is written in random time fragments. I also think it has something to do with the Christmas carol that was said at the beginning of the book. Again with the quotes and thought provoking sentences, this book amazes me with how great the gift of writing is and what a talented writer Kurt Vonnegut is.
The scouts were killed because they were seen as a threat to the Germans. They tried to ambush the German soldiers, so they had to be immediately taken care of before they could cause any harm. The Germans spared Billy and Weary because they were just the opposite of the scouts: unthreatening and moronic, honestly. The German soldiers found Weary beating up Billy, which definitely confused them -- why would someone attack one of their own? It's funny that Billy and Weary got to live while the two other scouts were the ones who died. The two that tried to fulfill their duty were the ones that were killed. So it goes.
I think that the scouts were killed in an ironic way. They left Weary and Billy because they didn’t want to die but ended up dying while Weary and Billy were taken prisoner.
Billy seems to have all signs of PTSD, (Hallucinations, Weeping for no reason, day dreaming, etc.) But he doesn’t seem to care about the Vietnam bombings. Most often in PTSD victims they have flashbacks of war that can be triggered by words or images. So it would make sense that Billy would cringe or be frightened by the Vietnam bombings. It seems that Billy is hiding that away, it could be the cause of his weeping.
II think that Billy would have wanted it to happen this way. He constantly states In the second chapter how he just wishes the scouts and Weary would leave him and continue on without him. I do not believe he would have survived much longer on his own self will, that is why he needed to be captured and imprisoned. I really enjoyed the quote in the book that is said for Billy to "keep him going". People need to accept the aspects of their their life that they cannot change, know how to react and change, and have the wisdom to tell the difference between the two. Also, I believe that Billy's prescribed naps are to relive him of his constant mind tripping madness. Although he probably takes the risk of falling into another time lapse in a dream, deep sleep is exactly what Billy's mind needs to finally relax. Billy's weeping may be a result of his inability to show emotions during his constant time trips. He has to weep in order to release a buildup of held back emotions.
I agree a lot with Nola's comment on the irony of the photo taken while they were marching. It gave anti-war protesters leverage over the war because it made the government and the funding to the war seem less than it was. While conditions were bad over where the soldiers were stationed, the fact that it was only a portion of what was going that was seen by the public made it seem twenty times worse. Also, I think that Billy's crying is a symptom of PTSD. I think this because PSTD is often associated with war, because of all the things seen by the soldiers.
I think Billy is falling in and out of reality in his own present life, slowly losing his own sanity. He's falling asleep at work more often probably because the trauma through war and the deaths in his life are catching up with him, and hes just losing it more and more. Along with that is how he just randomly weeps, he has a lot going on psychologically and cant take it anymore, losing his mind.
Why else would Billy randomly weep? The guy is completely insane and survived war. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is the most logical cause of his outbursts. After reading "the Red Badge of Courage" last year you learn a lot about the gruesome details of war. I may not have and may not ever experience war, but Stephen Crane, the author of "the Red Badge of Courage," surely painted a well picture. There is no doubt in my mind that PTSD has some sort of influence on the condition.
The scouts are only killed because Weary left them to go convince Billy to keep treading. When he started falling asleep at work, he was finally realizing that maybe the whole time-travelling with aliens was a bit strange and maybe he was starting to go crazy. He started crying now because he is starting to believe that he might not be sane and that being captured by aliens isn’t normal. I think that he was abducted by the aliens when things are starting to get hard and he needs an escape (like when the train started moving). The prayer on his wall is something that I heard a while ago, and I’ve been trying to live by it. It means that there are some things that you can change and you should try to change them, and there are some things that you just have to let them be. It would be very relatable for Billy, he can’t change the war, or time-travelling, or being abducted by aliens, and he needs to accept that fact.
Weary and Billy were not killed, unlike the scouts, because they weren't seen as a threat. The scouts had ditched them and were waiting to ambush the Germans, doing what they believed would be best and save them, which was why they were killed immediately. So it goes. When they were found, neither Weary nor Billy had any weapons on them and, like all the times he'd been ditched before, Weary had begun to wail on his fellow soldier. As I read this part, I thought that it was the strangest reaction, to beat the only man left with you, the only man that could possibly have your back should trouble arise. Then, I almost wanted to facepalm myself, because my mind started clicking. I made the connection between "Why anthropology?" and "Why would Weary beat Billy for no reason?" Everyone is who they are because of their past. Weary found his own way to get through always being the one left behind by beginning relationships with the knowledge that he would be the one to cause the pain and walk away. He gives himself power by taking away from others, exactly what they used to do to him. And this time his sadistic coping tactic is what saved him and Pilgrim. I find it ironic, though, that as he was trying to practically kill Billy, he ended up saving their lives.
Since Billy is falling asleep often at work, I think maybe these little “time travels” could be just dreams. He is obviously very stressed or worn out or tired or something, but maybe he just has something wrong with his mind because of the experiences he had during the war. Ausable Chasm is a sandstone gorge tourist attraction near Keeseville, New York. The Ausable River runs through it. It is supposed to be “where the spirit of adventure begins” with a bunch of walking trails and beautiful nature scenery. The Lion’s Club is a service organization that raises money for worthy causes. They have a lot of people working for them and they do many fundraisers and things around communities to raise money and to do nice things for the less fortunate. They also promote values of good citizenship and good character, and they really want people to have a good relationship with everyone they meet. I think Billy randomly weeps because he has something wrong with him. I think he’s really stressed and emotional. He fought in a war, so he probably has PTSD. He also has a lot running through his head with his story of being abducted by aliens and his time traveling, which I think have a lot to do with all the traumatic stress that the war put on him.
I found it pretty neat that Billy owned part of 3 Tastee-Freezes and part of a Holiday Inn, they both seemed like random, but good businesses to invest money in, who doesn’t love ice cream and it is very rare that someone wouldn’t stay in a hotel. I think it is sad how a prevalent thing throughout the story so far is how much Billy doesn’t really want to be living at all he is just kind of tired with life itself. I looked up the prayer that was hanging in Billy’s office and was surprised to find that is the same prayer has been used in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, since 1941. I find that interesting because even though it wasn’t mentioned that he was an alcoholic he still suffers from issues that he can’t really control and he can find some peace from reading that prayer daily almost like the alcoholic who just needs a little push when the going gets tough. Another thing that I find to be a little different about Bill, is his random crying outbursts. I’m not saying that a good cry isn’t needed sometimes, but to not know why or where they come from would alarm me. I also find it curious that the doctor thinks that taking a nap would cure his crying, I don’t see the correlation between napping and crying. I think the crying comes from Billy’s failures and mistakes that make up a large part of his past, from being in the war to weird situations that have happened to him with his family members, and not to mention the aliens I think that might make anyone burst into tears at any given time.
I believe the trauma that Billy endures everyday from constantly having flashbacks of the war has lead to is constant periods of weeping. I think that his inability to make the flashbacks cease is what's putting him in so much despair. I also think the Tralfamadorians find free will so baffling because they don't believe there is any way to create your own destiny or future. That there is no tampering with your fate.I think they find this to be a foolish characteristic in humans because humans are the only species in the universe that tend to think this way.
Ausable Chasm is a sandstone gorge tourist attraction near Keeseville, New York. The Ausable River runs through it, which then empties into Lake Champlain. It is to be known where the "Spirit of Adventure Begins" with all the nature and trails! As far as the Lion's Club goes it is an organization that raises money for several worthy causes. Being part of this organizations promotes good character, citizenship, and is helpful to the community. They also do tons of fundraisers around communities to help raise money for the less fortunate! I feel as though Post Traumatic Stress Disorder was the cause of Billy weeping and sounds the most logical seeing as he survived war and is also kind of crazy.
I believe that Billy's "Time-travel" is in fact just flashbacks and that he must suffer from PTSD. When he is falling asleep at work it could just be he is having sudden flashbacks to the war during work, which gives the effect of "falling asleep". I also think that he randomly weeps because of PTSD and the memories and hardships he has been through. I think what Billy really needs is to see a psychologist for his problems. Flashbacks, random weeping, and the belief that one has been abducted by aliens are definitely all signs that you should see a mental health doctor.
"When food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." This is so true to me. As human when we are content and happy we are the best being on earth . But once we have a problem we become terrible, almost willing to do anything for the problem to just get fix. We would do anything to become happy and content again. today in life people who are far better off have no problem giving money away to charities or research but for the lower class who are unable to share has much wealth because they don't have the funding. As a human we say that we are selfless creatures who always take care of other that is true but before all of that we take however much we can to take care of ourselves.
During the 3rd chapter the scouts broke off away from Weary and Billy, which is odd to me because at first they wanted to be called the three musketeers. Ausable Chasm is a canyon in the state of New York, and is a narrow stream of water. The Lion's Club is a volunteer leadership chapter that does community service chapter. It's mainly for adults but there is space for teenagers to join. I think that the reason that Billy randomly weeps is because he is beginning to lose his sanity.
Billy can't keep awake at work but he still needs the help of "magic fingers" to fall asleep when he's at home. He claims he time travels and imagines that he is still in the war. Finally, he continues to cry uncontrollably for no particular reason. The most likely reason for these occurrences are symptoms from post dramatic stress disorder that he may have suffered from the war.
Billy cry's so often because he keeps his feelings bottled up all the time and can not really open up to people. He just keeps dwelling on the past and all the deaths of people that have past as well. Billy can not control his memories at all but all his is doing is hurting himself by crying about it all the time.
I think Billy's crying relates to the fact he has all these feelings and emotions bottled up inside and not knowing what the do with them or how to deal with them. Post dramatic stress disorder is definitely the cause. War is a stressful and emotional time and all of his flashbacks don't help him deal with the war. They only make it worse.
in my opinion The falling asleep at work and waking up in different times are not a significance to time travel. I think that Billy is suffering through a major case of Post Traumatic Stress. the weeping that billy has is due to the trauma that he endured through the way. Honestly, The man needs to see a psycologist to help him.
Ausable Chasm is a sandstone gorge tourist attraction near Keeseville, New York. The Ausable River runs through it. It is supposed to be “where the spirit of adventure begins” with a bunch of walking trails and beautiful nature scenery.
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I’m going to keep posting even though time has been up for four days. I too love the line, "when food came in, the human beings were quiet and trusting and beautiful. They share." It’s good to know that under such hellish conditions people can still be people. I think we forget that not everyone is an awful person and we don’t always give people enough credit. That being said, it’s sad that people sometimes need extreme measures to be kind. LIke, they can’t do it for the good of others, they need to benefit from it too.
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